Collective Corruption

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pm I KNOW EXACTLY what WILL and DOES replace 'economics/capitalism'
I'll take the bait.
Okay.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmWell considering thee Fact that there is NO "human mind" this is one pretty BIG CLAIM you have made here. Are you now ABLE to back up and support this CLAIM of yours with some ACTUAL evidence, let alone REAL PROOF?
This is just an intellectual exercise.
'What', EXACTLY, is just, supposedly, "an intellectual exercise"?
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm If you desire something real, that's [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered].
And, if you desire something 'real' (whatever that ACTUALLY means or refers to), then that is [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered], ALSO, correct?

Or, does this CLAIM of YOURS here only work one way?
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmEverything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAnd what, EXACTLY, are those 'skills', which you speak of here?
Adopt a technique which will allow you see things as close to the truth as is possible.
And what, EXACTLY, is that 'technique', which you speak of here?

Also, and by the way, WHY can you NOT YET SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they REALLY ARE?

Do you NOT YET KNOW how to SEE thee ACTUAL, and IRREFUTABLE, Truth of 'things' ALREADY?

If no, then just let us know. We CAN and WILL then HELP 'you' out.
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 am 'What', EXACTLY, is just, supposedly, "an intellectual exercise"?
All discourse is an intellectual exercise [unless you feel that you have stumbled upon the Truth].
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm If you desire something real, that's [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered].
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amAnd, if you desire something 'real' (whatever that ACTUALLY means or refers to), then that is [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered], ALSO, correct?

Or, does this CLAIM of YOURS here only work one way?
I believe that I have found what I was looking for...a truth that makes both intellectual and intuitive sense to me.
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmEverything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAnd what, EXACTLY, are those 'skills', which you speak of here?
Adopt a technique which will allow you see things as close to the truth as is possible.
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amAnd what, EXACTLY, is that 'technique', which you speak of here?

Also, and by the way, WHY can you NOT YET SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they REALLY ARE?
Because of the human condition, we have no access to Reality. We are simply incapable of this type of processing.
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amDo you NOT YET KNOW how to SEE thee ACTUAL, and IRREFUTABLE, Truth of 'things' ALREADY?

If no, then just let us know. We CAN and WILL then HELP 'you' out.
If it was possible, that would be nice. :)
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 am 'What', EXACTLY, is just, supposedly, "an intellectual exercise"?
All discourse is an intellectual exercise [unless you feel that you have stumbled upon the Truth].
I asked you if you are able to back up your claim with actual evidence, and you respond by telling us that "All discourse is an intellectual exercise", for some reason.

Maybe you will explain the connection.
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm If you desire something real, that's [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered].
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amAnd, if you desire something 'real' (whatever that ACTUALLY means or refers to), then that is [hopefully] on your path [to be discovered], ALSO, correct?

Or, does this CLAIM of YOURS here only work one way?
I believe that I have found what I was looking for...a truth that makes both intellectual and intuitive sense to me.
Okay, but what was 'it' that you were supposedly LOOKING FOR, in the beginning?
simplicity wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:28 pm
simplicity wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 10:32 pmEverything is changing all the time. Where you are correct is in your appreciation that true revolution is internal. Gain the skills necessary so you can most efficiently and effectively go with the change...moment by moment.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAnd what, EXACTLY, are those 'skills', which you speak of here?
Adopt a technique which will allow you see things as close to the truth as is possible.
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amAnd what, EXACTLY, is that 'technique', which you speak of here?

Also, and by the way, WHY can you NOT YET SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they REALLY ARE?
Because of the human condition, we have no access to Reality.
This appears to sound like you have already accessed Reality, Itself, and as such you have found that the Reality IS you have absolutely NO access AT ALL to Reality, Itself. Which as can be CLEARLY SEEN here is VERY CONTRADICTORY.

Also, what EXACTLY is this 'human condition', which you reference and talk about here'
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am We are simply incapable of this type of processing.
Are you referencing the processing, which 'you', "yourself", are doing here now?
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amDo you NOT YET KNOW how to SEE thee ACTUAL, and IRREFUTABLE, Truth of 'things' ALREADY?

If no, then just let us know. We CAN and WILL then HELP 'you' out.
If it was possible, that would be nice. :)
If what was possible?

'Us' helping 'you' out, or, 'you' being able to SEE what thee ACTUAL Truth of 'things' IS, EXACTLY? or, some thing else?
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:34 am I asked you if you are able to back up your claim with actual evidence, and you respond by telling us that "All discourse is an intellectual exercise", for some reason.
Maybe you will explain the connection.
Ok. The human intellect is not able to access Reality in any substantial manner. Therefore, what we think is only an approximation of what's going on [and most likely not very close]. So when we communicate, it is just an exercise, nothing that is actually real. It never has been and never can be.
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am I believe that I have found what I was looking for...a truth that makes both intellectual and intuitive sense to me.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmOkay, but what was 'it' that you were supposedly LOOKING FOR, in the beginning?
Truth.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAlso, and by the way, WHY can you NOT YET SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they REALLY ARE?
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 amBecause of the human condition, we have no access to Reality.
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amThis appears to sound like you have already accessed Reality, Itself, and as such you have found that the Reality IS you have absolutely NO access AT ALL to Reality, Itself. Which as can be CLEARLY SEEN here is VERY CONTRADICTORY.

Also, what EXACTLY is this 'human condition', which you reference and talk about here'
I believe that I have found the truth that is accessible to us. THE Truth is not accessible [but can be experienced]. Our intellectual take on things cannot be very close [the human condition]. My method [as it is for hundreds of millions] is meditation. It allows one to quiet the mind and perceive as close to Reality as one can get [by eliminating our intellectual discrimination]. Actual Reality, again, is not accessible for many reasons, perhaps the most important being that we can not access the present. Over and above that, the amount of information that would need to be processed is infinite and human beings are not capable of such.

Having said all of that, you must understand that the way things actually work have nothing to do with how we mere mortals perceive them. After all, we are capable of so little when you begin to consider everything and its inter-relatedness.
Age
Posts: 20194
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am
Age wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:34 am I asked you if you are able to back up your claim with actual evidence, and you respond by telling us that "All discourse is an intellectual exercise", for some reason.
Maybe you will explain the connection.
Ok. The human intellect is not able to access Reality in any substantial manner.
So, according to YOUR CLAIM and "logic" here, this is NOT REALLY True AT ALL because your OWN 'intellect' is NOT ABLE TO access Reality, in ANY substantial manner.

SEE, EVERY time one of 'you', human beings, makes the CLAIM that thee Truth or Reality can NOT be KNOWN, you are, literally, DEFEATING your OWN CLAIM in the EXACT SAME sentence and CLAIM.

One can NOT, logically, CLAIM to KNOW thee Truth while at the same time CLAIMING that there is NO Truth or NO access to Reality, Itself, without it being a 'self-contradictory' or 'self-refuting' CLAIM, itself.

simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am Therefore, what we think is only an approximation of what's going on [and most likely not very close].
OKAY, if this is True, then what you think or BELIEVE is here is ONLY an approximation of what is going on, and is MOST LIKELY NOT VERY CLOSE, anyway.

So, when you come back to us with what is FAR MORE CLOSE to what is ACTUALLY going on, then we WILL consider what you think and BELIEVE. There is OBVIOUSLY NO use considering what you think or BELIEVE here as it is MOST LIKELY NOT VERY CLOSE to what is ACTUALLY going on, thee Truth, NOR to Reality, Itself, anyway correct?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am So when we communicate, it is just an exercise, nothing that is actually real. It never has been and never can be.
So, what you say is NOT even ACTUALLY REAL, NEVER has been REAL, and NEVER can be REAL.

To some it now appears that you REALLY had NOTHING AT ALL, which could have backed up and supported YOUR CLAIM, so now the ONLY 'thing' you can turn to is SAYING and CLAIMING that what you say and communicate is NOT even ACTUALLY REAL, ANYWAY.

As I have POINTED OUT and SHOWN, previously, these human beings will say just about ANY thing in order to 'try to' back up and support THEIR CLAIMS.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 am I believe that I have found what I was looking for...a truth that makes both intellectual and intuitive sense to me.
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmOkay, but what was 'it' that you were supposedly LOOKING FOR, in the beginning?
Truth.
So, what IS the 'Truth' that you BELIEVE you have found, and which you were looking for?

Is it that "the human intellect is NOT able to access Reality, in ANY substantial way, and therefore also has NO access to 'Truth' as well? Or, is 'the Truth' that 'your' intellect, "simplicity", does ACTUALLY have access to Reality, and the Truth, but "others" intellect does NOT?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am
Age wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:08 pmAlso, and by the way, WHY can you NOT YET SEE 'things' EXACTLY as they REALLY ARE?
simplicity wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:43 amBecause of the human condition, we have no access to Reality.
Age wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 3:11 amThis appears to sound like you have already accessed Reality, Itself, and as such you have found that the Reality IS you have absolutely NO access AT ALL to Reality, Itself. Which as can be CLEARLY SEEN here is VERY CONTRADICTORY.

Also, what EXACTLY is this 'human condition', which you reference and talk about here'
I believe that I have found the truth that is accessible to us. THE Truth is not accessible [but can be experienced].
What is the difference between 'the truth' and 'THE TRUTH', to you?

Also, does the word 'experienced' relay or convey with it a concept of 'access' also?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am Our intellectual take on things cannot be very close [the human condition].
Who, or what, does the 'our' word refer to EXACTLY, which supposedly has "its intellectual (or intellect)"?

Also, WHY does 'your intellect/ual' only take on things very far?

WHY can 'your' so-called "intellectual" or ("intellect") NOT be very close?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am My method [as it is for hundreds of millions] is meditation.
Your 'method' for 'what', EXACTLY?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am It allows one to quiet the mind and perceive as close to Reality as one can get [by eliminating our intellectual discrimination].
What is this 'mind' thing, EXACTLY, which you talk of here? And, what noise does 'it' make, EXACTLY?

Also, WHY bother perceiving as close to Reality as one can get when, according to you, it is NOT even a possibility to get to Reality, Itself?

Furthermore, how would you EVER KNOW if you were close or not when you can NEVER get 'there'?

WHY do 'you' carry with you 'intellectual discrimination' for ANYWAY?

And, is the CLAIM that, "The human intellect is not able to access Reality in any substantial manner." just your OWN 'intellectual discrimination"?

And if you want to say, "No", then HOW would you KNOW if you can NOT even access Reality NOR THE TRUTH, anyway?

Oh, and by the way, the 'meditation' 'you', human beings, have been 'trying to' learn and/or conquer for thousands of years now can be achieved within seconds and with just two words ALONE.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am Actual Reality, again, is not accessible for many reasons, perhaps the most important being that we can not access the present.
WHY can 'you' NOT access the present, when EVERY other animal LIVES 'in the present'?

Also, accessing 'the present' can be and is done almost INSTANTANEOUSLY, by ANY one. In fact younger human beings are doing this ALL the time.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am Over and above that, the amount of information that would need to be processed is infinite and human beings are not capable of such.
I have NEVER noticed ANY thing about ANY one having to KNOW EVERY thing to just be able to access Reality, Itself, NOR 'the present'.

What, EXACTLY, has the amount of information got to do with just being able to access some 'thing' or not?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am Having said all of that, you must understand that the way things actually work have nothing to do with how we mere mortals perceive them.
OF COURSE how 'you', mere mortals, perceive how things work does NOT necessarily have to have ANY thing AT ALL to do with how things ACTUALLY WORK, BUT this does NOT, in ANY way AT ALL, mean that 'you', mere mortals, can NOT ACTUALLY work out how things ACTUALLY work.

You do understand this Fact, correct? Or, do you STILL BELIEVE that 'you', mere mortals, have aboslutely NO access AT ALL to Reality or how things ACTUALLY work that this BELIEF of YOURS is STOPPING you from SEEING and UNDERSTANDING this Fact?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am After all, we are capable of so little when you begin to consider everything and its inter-relatedness.
YET here 'you', mere mortals, are CONTINUALLY learning AND understanding MORE and MORE, as well as ANEW and ANEW, correct?
simplicity
Posts: 750
Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 am What is the difference between 'the truth' and 'THE TRUTH', to you? [/truth]

The former is intellectual truth, that is, each individual's truth as they perceive and "think" it. This intellectual truth is constantly changing with the conditions which give rise to it.

The later is Absolute Truth, that which lies outside of our ability to perceive. It is therefore non-intellectual and is not subject to change as it is "The Truth" each and every moment. One can experience The Truth by simply being with it, but never "understand" it.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWHY can 'your' so-called "intellectual" or ("intellect") NOT be very close?
Because our minds are limited. Consider what is taking place in the Universe. That's The Truth. How much of it do you figure you are able to understand?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am My method [as it is for hundreds of millions] is meditation.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYour 'method' for 'what', EXACTLY?
For getting as close as I can to truth.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amAlso, WHY bother perceiving as close to Reality as one can get when, according to you, it is NOT even a possibility to get to Reality, Itself?

Furthermore, how would you EVER KNOW if you were close or not when you can NEVER get 'there'?

WHY do 'you' carry with you 'intellectual discrimination' for ANYWAY?

And, is the CLAIM that, "The human intellect is not able to access Reality in any substantial manner." just your OWN 'intellectual discrimination"?

And if you want to say, "No", then HOW would you KNOW if you can NOT even access Reality NOR THE TRUTH, anyway?
All excellent questions. This is the problem with using the intellect for non-intellectual matters. The intellect is only supposed to motivate people to search on their own for those answers.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWHY can 'you' NOT access the present, when EVERY other animal LIVES 'in the present'?

Also, accessing 'the present' can be and is done almost INSTANTANEOUSLY, by ANY one. In fact younger human beings are doing this ALL the time.
How do you account for the time lag between stimulus and perception? What you are perceiving is already in the past.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWhat, EXACTLY, has the amount of information got to do with just being able to access some 'thing' or not?
If you would accept that all things are what they are because of the infinite number of things giving rise to them, how it is possible to understand anything?
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYou do understand this Fact, correct? Or, do you STILL BELIEVE that 'you', mere mortals, have aboslutely NO access AT ALL to Reality or how things ACTUALLY work that this BELIEF of YOURS is STOPPING you from SEEING and UNDERSTANDING this Fact?
People do believe that they know how things work, but they always have no matter how ridiculous they seem to us now. Why do you believe it is any different now? Do you believe that we have truly figured everything out?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am After all, we are capable of so little when you begin to consider everything and its inter-relatedness.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYET here 'you', mere mortals, are CONTINUALLY learning AND understanding MORE and MORE, as well as ANEW and ANEW, correct?
Yes, we do learn more and more, but all of this will be proven false with enough time. Why is that? Is humanity really getting closer to the truth of will we still be learning more and more 10,000, 10,000,000, or 10,000,000,000... years from now?
Age
Posts: 20194
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 am What is the difference between 'the truth' and 'THE TRUTH', to you?
The former is intellectual truth, that is, each individual's truth as they perceive and "think" it. This intellectual truth is constantly changing with the conditions which give rise to it.
I agree.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm The later is Absolute Truth, that which lies outside of our ability to perceive.
If it lays OUTSIDE of what you are ABLE to PERCEIVE, then HOW do you KNOW that 'it' even exists?

Can you REALLY STILL NOT YET SEE the CONTRADICTION here?

Contrary to what you BELIEVE here is true, thee, or absolute, Truth can be, and IS, SEEN, or PERCEIVED, VERY EASILY, VERY SIMPLE, and ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, by the way.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm It is therefore non-intellectual and is not subject to change as it is "The Truth" each and every moment.
Yes this is True. Thee Truth is UNCHANGING, and even UNCHANGEABLE, for EACH and EVERY moment ALWAYS.

So, would you NOW like to suggest that 'that' is just your 'intellectual truth', which is CHANGEABLE, or thee, absolute, and UNCHANGEABLE Truth?

Because if you NOW want to CLAIM that it is the latter, then you will ONLY CONTRADICT "yourself", ONCE MORE, and AGAIN.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm One can experience The Truth by simply being with it, but never "understand" it.
Is this, to you, supposedly, an intellectual truth, or thee absolute Truth?

Because, ONCE AGAIN, if you want to CLAIM that it is the former or the latter, then you WILL CONTRADICT "yourself".

SEE, for ANY one of 'you' who wants to CLAIM that there is NO One Truth, NO absolute Truth, or if there is One, then this can NEVER be KNOWN, then just about EVERY thing you say regarding this will be 'SELF-CONTRADICTORY'.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWHY can 'your' so-called "intellectual" or ("intellect") NOT be very close?
Because our minds are limited.
'you', human beings, in the days when this was being written, could NOT even describe, let alone explain, EXACTLY, what this 'mind' this IS, which 'you' consistently go on about.

What is ACTUALLY 'limited' is the THINKING within human bodies.

Now, ANY one 'try' and REFUTE this.

And, if ANY one 'tries to', then what WILL be found is that they can NOT.

NOW, just because THINKING, itself, is 'limited' this, IN NO WAY, infers that some THOUGHTS can be of what IS 'thee absolute Truth'.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm Consider what is taking place in the Universe. That's The Truth. How much of it do you figure you are able to understand?
HOW MUCH has absolutely NO bearing AT ALL on the absolute Truths that ARE ALREADY KNOWN, and will BECOME KNOWN.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am My method [as it is for hundreds of millions] is meditation.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYour 'method' for 'what', EXACTLY?
For getting as close as I can to truth.
Is this 'truth', little 't', which is NOTHING REALLY even worth considering, let alone talking about, or thee 'Truth', capital 'T', which you CLAIM you can NOT even PERCEIVE. Which ULTIMATELY MEANS you will NEVER EVER even KNOW if you are close or not.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amAlso, WHY bother perceiving as close to Reality as one can get when, according to you, it is NOT even a possibility to get to Reality, Itself?

Furthermore, how would you EVER KNOW if you were close or not when you can NEVER get 'there'?

WHY do 'you' carry with you 'intellectual discrimination' for ANYWAY?

And, is the CLAIM that, "The human intellect is not able to access Reality in any substantial manner." just your OWN 'intellectual discrimination"?

And if you want to say, "No", then HOW would you KNOW if you can NOT even access Reality NOR THE TRUTH, anyway?
All excellent questions. This is the problem with using the intellect for non-intellectual matters.
Well I suggest CHANGING your words, and/or language, of 'intellect' and 'non-intellect' to what is ACTUALLY True, and then you will find that you will NO problem/s AT ALL. Or, if you do, then they will be somewhat LESS.

simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm The intellect is only supposed to motivate people to search on their own for those answers.
But 'what answers'?

You CLAIM that you have found 'thee answer' that you will NEVER EVER find thee absolute True answer/s anyway.

So, what is the ACTUAL 'motivation' for people to search for answers when you KEEP TELLING THEM that they could NEVER EVER even find thee absolute True NOR Right answers?

You seem to be 'trying' as hard as you can to 'quell' ANY motivation there is at all is to find answers.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWHY can 'you' NOT access the present, when EVERY other animal LIVES 'in the present'?

Also, accessing 'the present' can be and is done almost INSTANTANEOUSLY, by ANY one. In fact younger human beings are doing this ALL the time.
How do you account for the time lag between stimulus and perception? What you are perceiving is already in the past.
Did you, SERIOUSLY and REALLY, NOT read the word 'almost' in my CLARIFYING sentence?

The word 'almost' accounts for the time lag between stimulus and perception PERFECTLY. That is HOW I ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR that 'time lag'.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amWhat, EXACTLY, has the amount of information got to do with just being able to access some 'thing' or not?
If you would accept that all things are what they are because of the infinite number of things giving rise to them, how it is possible to understand anything?
VERY EASILY and VERY SIMPLE if and when one is Truly OPEN.

If you would like to provide ANY example AT ALL of some thing you CLAIM could NEVER be understood, because one does NOT YET KNOW absolutely EVERY thing AT ALL, then let us take a LOOK AT that example, and then we CAN, and WILL, SEE what happens next.

SEE, I CAN understand that if the eyes of this body LOOK AT the sun, when the sun is not on the horizon, on a cloudless day, then there will be feelings of pain in this body, and that there will be damage those eyes. And, the thinking in this same body CERTAINLY does NOT KNOW much, NOR UNDERSTAND much, AT ALL in regards to EVERY thing that there is TO LEARN, KNOW, and UNDERSTAND.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYou do understand this Fact, correct? Or, do you STILL BELIEVE that 'you', mere mortals, have aboslutely NO access AT ALL to Reality or how things ACTUALLY work that this BELIEF of YOURS is STOPPING you from SEEING and UNDERSTANDING this Fact?
People do believe that they know how things work, but they always have no matter how ridiculous they seem to us now.
Is there absolutely ANY human being created contraption, which it is NOT KNOWN or NOT UNDERSTOOD how 'it' works?

If yes, then will you list them, or even just some of them for us please?

If no, then WHY NOT?

As for KNOWING how other things work, then this just comes about FAR MORE SUCCESSFULLY when the Unified Knowing comes to fruition.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm Why do you believe it is any different now?
But I do NOT believe this.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm Do you believe that we have truly figured everything out?
OF COURSE NOT. AND, WHEN will you get this MOST ABSURD NOTION out of that head.

Human beings will NEVER figure EVERY thing out. NO matter how long they exist for.

I have NEVER even thought this let alone said ANYWHERE that they could NOR would, and I would be VERY SURPRISE If ANY human being has even suggested that this could happen, ANYWHERE. So, WHY do you PERSIST with this MOST ILLOGICAL and NONSENSICAL concept?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:52 am After all, we are capable of so little when you begin to consider everything and its inter-relatedness.
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 amYET here 'you', mere mortals, are CONTINUALLY learning AND understanding MORE and MORE, as well as ANEW and ANEW, correct?
Yes, we do learn more and more, but all of this will be proven false with enough time.
NOT EVERY thing, in the past, to when this was being written, was PROVEN False. So, WHY do you ASSUME and/or BELIEVE that ABSOLUTELY EVERY thing 'you', human beings, have learned WILL be PROVEN False sometime ahead of 'you' "simplicity"?
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm Why is that?
But what you CLAIM here is NOT 'thee absolute Truth'. What you CLAIM here is just your OWN 'intellectual truth'. Which will OBVIOUSLY be PROVEN False, Wrong, AND Incorrect, and as a matter of Fact has ALREADY been PROVEN False, Wrong, AND Incorrect.

simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm Is humanity really getting closer to the truth of will we still be learning more and more 10,000, 10,000,000, or 10,000,000,000... years from now?
As long as 'you', human beings, REMAIN EXISTING, 'you' will keep learning MORE and MORE.

And, 'you' said above 'meditation' is used to get 'as close to The Truth' as you can, but here you seem to be question if you can EVER get close to 'The Truth?

Also, you ask here, "is humanity really getting closer to the truth", which you had previously claimed is; "intellectual truth, that is, each individual's truth as they perceive and "think" it", which means the answer to your question here would be EVERY one can NOT get ANY closer to 'the truth' as 'it' is each individuals OWN 'intellectual truth', as they perceive and think it.

I suggest if you WANT TO bring in unfamiliar usage of words like, 'The Truth', instead of, 'the truth', then you remain as consistent as you can possibly be. Especially when you are going to use BOTH, for DIFFERENT meanings.
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Age wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:29 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:41 am What is the difference between 'the truth' and 'THE TRUTH', to you?
The former is intellectual truth, that is, each individual's truth as they perceive and "think" it. This intellectual truth is constantly changing with the conditions which give rise to it.
I agree.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm The later is Absolute Truth, that which lies outside of our ability to perceive.
Age wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:29 pmIf it lays OUTSIDE of what you are ABLE to PERCEIVE, then HOW do you KNOW that 'it' even exists?

Can you REALLY STILL NOT YET SEE the CONTRADICTION here?

Contrary to what you BELIEVE here is true, thee, or absolute, Truth can be, and IS, SEEN, or PERCEIVED, VERY EASILY, VERY SIMPLE, and ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, by the way.
Everybody who has delved into this subject-matter sees the contradiction, but that's the way it is when you are attempting to chat about non-intellectual things...intellectually.

You don't have to accept this, but it's what has been out there for thousands of years. It is the contradiction that leads people to explore the "other side," so to speak. The vast majority of people have never heard of this, and of those who are introduced, few take an interest. Of those who do, very few of those will ever do the work necessary to truly look into what lies there. I just happen to be one of the those who have. No big deal.

Nobody is ever going to be able to explain this to you. It is not supposed to make intellectual sense. Either you accept that there are such things that our intellect is not privy to or you don't. Most people do not explore this kind of thing until their 40's, 50's or beyond. It really doesn't hold much for younger folks because they are till trying to figure everything out.
Age
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Age »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:59 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:29 pm
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm

The former is intellectual truth, that is, each individual's truth as they perceive and "think" it. This intellectual truth is constantly changing with the conditions which give rise to it.
I agree.
The later is Absolute Truth, that which lies outside of our ability to perceive.
simplicity wrote: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:39 pm
Age wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:29 pmIf it lays OUTSIDE of what you are ABLE to PERCEIVE, then HOW do you KNOW that 'it' even exists?

Can you REALLY STILL NOT YET SEE the CONTRADICTION here?

Contrary to what you BELIEVE here is true, thee, or absolute, Truth can be, and IS, SEEN, or PERCEIVED, VERY EASILY, VERY SIMPLE, and ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, by the way.
Everybody who has delved into this subject-matter sees the contradiction, but that's the way it is when you are attempting to chat about non-intellectual things...intellectually.

You don't have to accept this, but it's what has been out there for thousands of years. It is the contradiction that leads people to explore the "other side," so to speak. The vast majority of people have never heard of this, and of those who are introduced, few take an interest. Of those who do, very few of those will ever do the work necessary to truly look into what lies there. I just happen to be one of the those who have. No big deal.

Nobody is ever going to be able to explain this to you. It is not supposed to make intellectual sense. Either you accept that there are such things that our intellect is not privy to or you don't. Most people do not explore this kind of thing until their 40's, 50's or beyond. It really doesn't hold much for younger folks because they are till trying to figure everything out.
According to this so-called "logic" of yours here 'you' are still one of the "younger folk" as it is 'you' who is still trying to figure everything out here.

What you seem to be COMPLETELY and UTTERLY MISSING here is that I have ALREADY made so-called 'intellectual sense' of 'That' what you claim is NOT supposed to make 'intellectual sense'.

And that 'you' are NOT YET 'privy' to 'This' is ALREADY FULLY ACCEPTED. This can be VERY CLEARLY SEEN.

ONCE AGAIN, you appear to have completely and utterly MISCONSTRUED and MISUNDERSTOOD what I have been saying and meaning here.

ONCE MORE, I will suggest GAINING CLARITY BEFORE you MAKE ANY ASSUMPTION.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Scott Mayers »

simplicity wrote: Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:15 pm There are so many issues with collectivism that it might take until next Christmas to list and discuss them all, but perhaps the worst of the lot is the inherent corruption that defines every collective effort. After all, what is the purpose of a "collective" if it if not to pool resources and power to effect change...change that is only in-line with those who control the collective.

It has become quite popular [since the 1840's and Marx/Engels contribution to political economy] to criticize the only viable economic system that exists...capitalism. And considering the scope of a system as vast, there is certainly plenty to take issue with, but no more than any other system conjured up by the human mind. Paradoxes and disparities abound, but the main point is that this economic system has been able to propel the productivity of human beings beyond the stratosphere. Literally billions of people have been lifted out of abject poverty and now have the chance to live meaningful lives. Believe what you wish, people a century ago would not thought that this was possible [except the Utopians who always see the promised land just beyond the next massive tax increase].
Any GENERAL successes that lift anyone out of poverty are due specifically to socialist interventions. We do NOT have a pure 'capitalist' society.

Arguing against 'collectives' should include 'companies' as collectives that you arrogantly ignore. But note that if you support individual rights, you cannot support collections of them unless you are biased to favoring SPECIAL privilege rights to those with more wealth to DICTATE which 'collectives' are discounted. Certainly if you are against 'collectives' to any degree, you have to be against SOME INDIVIDUALS that those collectives comprise. As such, you cannot speak against 'collectives' in general without recognizing bias to some religious view that discounts anyone that happens to disagree with you in principle.

"Capitalism" was also not invented. It is the default nature of people from as far back as civilization itself. The only reason for its contemporary distinction is based upon the "Christian" protestants who wanted to have the novel benefit of USARY that their prior Catholic states originally denied. "Usary" IS 'Capitalism'!!

P.S. Note that Conservative "capitalism" also demands not that each person is granted an equal count but that the value of the persons are based upon their capital. As such, the trouble with 'collectivism' where it exists is when a MINORITY of actual people have the power to dictate over others. Thus, the 'collectivists' of the Right who act AS a 'minority' are treated as paramount regardless of whether they actually represent a countable minority or not.
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:02 amAny GENERAL successes that lift anyone out of poverty are due specifically to socialist interventions. We do NOT have a pure 'capitalist' society.
So you are saying that government is more effective than the market in innovation, allocating capital, choosing winners and losers, distributing products, etc., etc., etc.

The only thing that government can do is take a great percentage of the people's earned income away and spend it on [generally speaking] wasteful projects.

Although you need government [laws] to protect individuals, this is the only reason you need government. The government produces zero wealth and cannot lift anybody out of anywhere. The best it can do is transfer wealth. This type of behavior always ends poorly as the unintended consequences of such foolishness becomes apparent soon after running out of other people's money.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by Scott Mayers »

simplicity wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:54 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:02 amAny GENERAL successes that lift anyone out of poverty are due specifically to socialist interventions. We do NOT have a pure 'capitalist' society.
So you are saying that government is more effective than the market in innovation, allocating capital, choosing winners and losers, distributing products, etc., etc., etc.

The only thing that government can do is take a great percentage of the people's earned income away and spend it on [generally speaking] wasteful projects.

Although you need government [laws] to protect individuals, this is the only reason you need government. The government produces zero wealth and cannot lift anybody out of anywhere. The best it can do is transfer wealth. This type of behavior always ends poorly as the unintended consequences of such foolishness becomes apparent soon after running out of other people's money.
"Government" exists REGARDLESS of whether we have a formal system as we do that COMBINES managing all resourses or not.

A "government" is the system or group of people governing an organized community, generally a state." This means that even if we had your ideal by contrast, all we would have is a PRIVATE government run by your ideal of superiority: those with capital.

You are imposing the same belief in Social Darwinism as for Economic Darwinism that capitalism operates by. That is, if you remove the 'social' aspects of government BY THE PEOPLE, then you have a system OWNED AND OPERATED by the wealthy who think the system of "government" that should exist should only AMPLIFY the power of the wealthy by making it ONLY a body to serve as the King's Court. You would then tax the people ONLY to pay for a police force that gets used specifically against THEM in favor of the wealthy.

If you want to pretend to be Darwinistic, then you better NOT be religious or you'd prove to be a hypocrite. For some reason, I'm sure that such an ideal you hold would actually IMPOSE religion upon the masses: one that places the LORDS of property as equivalent to being Gods themselves.

"Ownership" is NOT REAL outside of government creation. If you presume that letting the wealthy have freedom of will at the expense of the poor, you are oddly having FAITH in people who are wealthy with an arrogant insulting assumption that YOU EARNED IT and that all the poor have 'earned' their poverty. This is religious thinking and suggests racist undertones because you ignore that the distribution of ethics is shared across ALL people. That is, if you think the mobs are dumb, stupid, and selfish for demanding 'socialist' ideals then you must believe your particular minority views as an 'owner' are somehow less susceptible of being flawed?

The government DOES create wealth. For the Right, they favor all those military and policing contracts. Infrastructure is also a universal 'welfare' benefit that 'profits' ALL people but MOST ESPECIALLY, the wealthy. The laws that LIMIT corporations (privately owned artificial 'persons') profit the society as a whole where regulation exists.

The reality is that the world WILL trend towards a NECESSARY form of Socialism or we WILL destroy ourselves. Given merely the fact that the wealthy are more violent against any system that affects their own profit versus the starving poor, we will likely annihilate ourselves before that. That is, the tempertantrums of the wealthy minorities are the threat.

"Profit" (or "Worth" in accounting) is itself an odd privilege given it means all one has a 'right' to take more than they give. There is NO 'free' pass to the energy exchanges that goes on in nature regardless of where they occur. As such, the ONLY way that one can BE wealthy NECESSARILY requires taking something for FREE from the environment. The way western governments operate by default always has favored this unfair bias.
simplicity
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by simplicity »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 am A "government" is the system or group of people governing an organized community, generally a state." This means that even if we had your ideal by contrast, all we would have is a PRIVATE government run by your ideal of superiority: those with capital.
What do you believe it is now? You give a group of people USD20T to spend and it's not going to end well. You must severely limit what they have and specify where it can be spent.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 amYou are imposing the same belief in Social Darwinism as for Economic Darwinism that capitalism operates by. That is, if you remove the 'social' aspects of government BY THE PEOPLE, then you have a system OWNED AND OPERATED by the wealthy who think the system of "government" that should exist should only AMPLIFY the power of the wealthy by making it ONLY a body to serve as the King's Court. You would then tax the people ONLY to pay for a police force that gets used specifically against THEM in favor of the wealthy.
How much socialism would you like? Isn't paying over 50% of your income [in taxes] enough? Perhaps 80% would make you happier?
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 am"Ownership" is NOT REAL outside of government creation. If you presume that letting the wealthy have freedom of will at the expense of the poor, you are oddly having FAITH in people who are wealthy with an arrogant insulting assumption that YOU EARNED IT and that all the poor have 'earned' their poverty. This is religious thinking and suggests racist undertones because you ignore that the distribution of ethics is shared across ALL people. That is, if you think the mobs are dumb, stupid, and selfish for demanding 'socialist' ideals then you must believe your particular minority views as an 'owner' are somehow less susceptible of being flawed?
Perhaps you should consider thinking for yourself instead putting out the same worn narrative about the rich v. the poor and racism. Isn't that kind of lazy to believe that societal complexity can always be boiled down to these two things. It's not the way the world works.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 amThe government DOES create wealth. For the Right, they favor all those military and policing contracts. Infrastructure is also a universal 'welfare' benefit that 'profits' ALL people but MOST ESPECIALLY, the wealthy. The laws that LIMIT corporations (privately owned artificial 'persons') profit the society as a whole where regulation exists.
You don't understand what wealth creation is. Government can only confiscate other people's wealth and re-distribute.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 amThe reality is that the world WILL trend towards a NECESSARY form of Socialism or we WILL destroy ourselves. Given merely the fact that the wealthy are more violent against any system that affects their own profit versus the starving poor, we will likely annihilate ourselves before that. That is, the tempertantrums of the wealthy minorities are the threat.
Again, how much socialism would you like? You [and those like you] will never rest until everybody is miserable [just like all socialists].
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:58 am"Profit" (or "Worth" in accounting) is itself an odd privilege given it means all one has a 'right' to take more than they give. There is NO 'free' pass to the energy exchanges that goes on in nature regardless of where they occur. As such, the ONLY way that one can BE wealthy NECESSARILY requires taking something for FREE from the environment. The way western governments operate by default always has favored this unfair bias.
Where is it written that life is fair? Study nature and learn about how things really work.
promethean75
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by promethean75 »

"How much socialism would you like? Isn't paying over 50% of your income [in taxes] enough? Perhaps 80% would make you happier?"

What you are doing here is:

a) feeling the financial stress of being taxed in a free market system that makes everything so incredibly expensive, even the smallest sales and income tax puts a dent in your wallet.

b) forgetting that in a socialism, the most expensive things would be much cheaper, making the taxes you pay create less of a dent in your pocket.

Consider that nearly half of all renters spend at least thirty percent of their income on rent. In a socialism, there is no rent.

Then count medical expenses, mortgages and school tuition.

Taxes are only an unbearable burden in a system that allows private business to artificially inflate the real cost of commodities and services.

You're going broke because capitalist parasites all around you are sucking the blood from your wallet while their government cronies are taxing the shit out of you at the same time.
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Re: Collective Corruption

Post by RCSaunders »

promethean75 wrote: Sun Dec 26, 2021 12:58 am "The system is what it is."
If you are talking about capitalism, there is no such thing as a, "capitalist system." There is not now, and never has been a, "capitalist," government or country--there is no such thing. There is a part of economics that is capitalism, which only means for any business that actually produces a product or service that results in a profit, some of that profit is set aside (as capital) for further development and production. Without capital all future production and development are not possible. Capital is nothing more than the seed grain the farmer stores for next years planting rather the eating and selling it all this year and starving the next. You are opposed to that?
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