Libertarianism in practice

[henry quirk]

You are adding customary traditional ethics there that doesn't derive from your divine 3 at all.

if seen thru the lens of the 3 are ordinances you're absolutely right

man, that gulf is huge

[FlashDangerpants]

You are adding customary traditional ethics there that doesn't derive from your divine 3 at all.

if seen thru the lens of the 3 are ordinances you're absolutely right

man, that gulf is huge

It quite plainly doesn't derive from them Henry, don't try to gaslight me.

[henry quirk]

It quite plainly doesn't derive from them Henry

yeah, it does, if you accept the underlying foundation of natural rights

if you don't... *shrug*

[FlashDangerpants]

While that goes nowhere, back to the thing I decided to put aside while we checked to see how badly you would flounder on the Epstein thing...

Cathiolic Church prison wings

there's 7 billion on this planet: how many perv priests and prison pervs are there?

You are going to allow all of the following without hindrance as far as I can see...
Please don't bother telling me how glad you are for any of the below, just follow the trail.

Unregulated Casinos
Unregulated Brothels
The import and distribution of entirely legal cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, meth, ketamine and so on
Probably live sex shows, even the ones in Tijuana with the lady and the donkey
Tourism

Also you aren't very likely to require hotels to keep very good information about guests who have stayed there.

Then there's stuff that you wouldn't allow if you knew, but you have no way to do anything about with such limited government...
Money laundering via those same casinos and brothels
Money laundering with a twist because you have no regulatory authority nor any body of law related to accountancy practices, so GAAP can fuck right off
Organised crime - there's brothels, money laundering and drugs, of course you are gonna have cartels in your place.

The above pretty much guarantees that your zone will become a sex tourism destination. A great place to gamble, share an 8ball with a whore, and if you wake in the morning and she's dead, you can just skip town and nobody even took your name or photo so there's no way you'll get caught. So all that you need to add child prostitution into that mix is either a little bit of local poverty, or good old fashioned human trafficking via the open ports you operate.

And you have done away with the following...
Social Security
Child Protective Services
Compulsory free education
Keynesian market interventions
Etc...


So you have families who can fall into poverty very rapidly (private unemployment insurance notwithstanding: with no accountancy law and no requirements to keep accurate records, fly by night insurers who take the money when the getting is good and skip town when there is a recession will see to that. Plus reinsurance on international market for such a jurisdiction would come with crippling risk adjustment costs making legit insurers completely uncompetitive in the local market)

The remedies you offer for destitution are rather limited, support for psychiatrically troubled kids with alcoholic fathers and stuff like that is probably also limited, so there should be a few vulnerable teens for the predators to whisk away. The guy recruiting for the next Epstein or Gaetz will defintely offer real good cash and an escape from an unhappy home. And drugs, he's gonna offer drugs too.

If you catch him, maybe you'll string him up. Or maybe he will persuade a court that he was operating within that 3 thing. But he probably never told anyone his real name anyway, so if he's skipped town you won't even recognise him on his next visit (assuming this is happening in a city like Baton Rouge, Louisiana).

So that's it, you have been operating on an assumption that only devoted adherents of your 3 would want to live in your zone. But it's a barely policed free zone with hardly any laws where drug dealers and con men can have a field day. So it will draw in a huge number of perverts and the people who specialise in catering to them in return for money.

[henry quirk]

that's New Hong Kong from Buck Godot: I'd live there

Just because there are no laws, that doesn't mean there are no rules.

[FlashDangerpants]

that's New Hong Kong from Buck Godot: I'd live there

Just because there are no laws, that doesn't mean there are no rules.

Did you ever even work out how you could have an appeals process?

But face it, some of these regulations that exist in the real world are there because of horrible abuses that have happened in the past and throwing the whole lot out does invite a rerun. That's why accountants, financiers, doctors, lawyers and many other professions are regulated. They are all in a position to exploit an information gap between themselves and their clients.

[henry quirk]

Did you ever even work out how you could have an appeals process?

nah...gave up on it after I stopped takin' the conversation seriously

but if the Free Zone is as you describe (New Hong Kong) then the rules for such things would be all over the place, and that's okay

see, I came into this all somber and challenged (and frankly, narrow-minded), but -- thanks to you -- my eyes are open: if the Free Zone is truly free then it has to be barely contained chaos; the only law, a rough & ready recognition of natural rights (what comes to mind is a security cam clip I saw recently: guy tries to hold up a gun store and every customer there shot him, all at once)

But face it, some of these regulations that exist in the real world are there because of horrible abuses that have happened in the past and throwing the whole lot out does invite a rerun.

we live in a world of 100,000 laws, 100s of treaties: does it seem to you all this safety has amounted to a hill of beans?

as I see it: all this safety has just made the hyenas fat and you and me lean

That's why accountants, financiers, doctors, lawyers and many other professions are regulated. They are all in a position to exploit an informations gap between themselves and their clients.

and they don't exploit now?

of course they, aided by 100,000 laws that fool people into believin' they're safe from predation, that someone has their back, that they're represented in the halls of power

speakin' of which: how's Britain's beer virus response sittin' with you? you happy with it?

[FlashDangerpants]

Did you ever even work out how you could have an appeals process?

nah...gave up on it after I stopped takin' the conversation seriously

but if the Free Zone is as you describe (New Hong Kong) then the rules for such things would be all over the place, and that's okay

see, I came into this all somber and challenged (and frankly, narrow-minded), but -- thanks to you -- my eyes are open: if the Free Zone is truly free then it has to be barely contained chaos; the only law, a rough & ready recognition of natural rights (what comes to mind is a security cam clip I saw recently: guy tries to hold up a gun store and every customer there shot him, all at once)

Fair enough. as long as we aren't pretending it will be filled with extra special enlightened souls who all think exactly alike then I guess that's the end of my griping.

But face it, some of these regulations that exist in the real world are there because of horrible abuses that have happened in the past and throwing the whole lot out does invite a rerun.

we live in a world of 100,000 laws, 100s of treaties: does it seem to you all this safety has amounted to a hill of beans?

as I see it: all this safety has just made the hyenas fat and you and me lean

It's not perfect but it's kinda pretty good. I recommend reading a few good history books and comparing all the awful shit that happened to what's grinding your gears today, it's good for perspective.

We both live in countries where we can call our president a houseplant or our prime minister a partially deflated Bulgarian sex doll and nobody claps us in irons. I don't know about you, but I have never had scurvy or smallpox, not even once. Even the stuff you compare to actual slavery is just minor annoyances like face masks.

We've never been forcibly drafted into any army and sent off to fight total strangers the way our grandads were, and their granddads had to avoid getting too drunk anywhere near the sea because otherwise they might wake up on a British ship and be told they had to fire a cannon at somebody.

Rule of law in Britain and America is pretty workable, and international law is maybe a work in progress, but such progress can be made. I wouldn't throw it all away to live as a goat in Nepal, but each to their own.

That's why accountants, financiers, doctors, lawyers and many other professions are regulated. They are all in a position to exploit an informations gap between themselves and their clients.

and they don't exploit now?

of course they, aided by 100,000 laws that fool people into believin' they're safe from predation, that someone has their back, that they're represented in the halls of power

I've never had a quack doctor prescribe me horse worming potions (although when I was a teen I did have a doctor who always insisted on seeing my balls and making me cough no matter why I was there, and it was a really long time before I realised that's not normal, but he didn't cup anything so I don't care). I've never really had any dealing with lawyers, but they do seem to weed out at least the worst ones. Big accountancy scandals are newswrothy because they are rare, which is a result of things like GAAP so I don't recommend getting rid of that stuff.

speakin' of which: how's Britain's beer virus response sittin' with you? you happy with it?

A friend lost two uncles to it, but they lived in India not UK. I had it super early and didn't realise until I had a chest x-ray 6 weeks later and there was still a smudge, but I didn't get a fever so I kinda didn't care. A friend got it with the full fever, and that didn't sound like a fun experience.

But we're not really the best rule followers over here, so we sort of don't do the lockdown thing all that hard, and that unruly Britishness more than Boris' ineptitude is the real reason we keep having bigger infection spikes than the Germans.

IRL I don't know any antivaxxers or any of the people running around protesting about public health measures, you're the closest contact I have with that sort of thing tbh. So in general we just complain about the government being wankers, which is what we say about every government, and we blame all our own naughtiness on them.

[henry quirk]

extra special enlightened souls who all think exactly alike

c'mon, now: I never described any of 'em, or myself, that way

like minded natural rightists is closer, and -- even if most wouldn't think of themselves that way, or worry a jot about natural rights or moral fact -- that's what they'd be: unruly and raw

I guess that's the end of my griping.

accord (of a kind) in only 11 pages: must be a record

I recommend reading a few good history books and comparing all the awful shit that happened to what's grinding your gears today, it's good for perspective.

recommendations?

We both live in countries where we can call our president a houseplant or our prime minister a partially deflated Bulgarian sex doll and nobody claps us in irons. I don't know about you, but I have never had scurvy or smallpox, not even once. Even the stuff you compare to actual slavery is just minor annoyances like face masks.

We've never been forcibly drafted into any army and sent off to fight total strangers the way our grandads were, and their granddads had to avoid getting too drunk anywhere near the sea because otherwise they might wake up on a British ship and be told they had to fire a cannon at somebody.

Rule of law in Britain and America is pretty workable, and international law is maybe a work in progress, but such progress can be made. I wouldn't throw it all away to live as a goat in Nepal, but each to their own.

you're right, of course, but I am what I am: it's in my bones

I've never had a quack doctor prescribe me horse worming potions

I've had a real, licensed, doc push pain killers on me for my pleurisy, even after I told him no. I changed doctors. I had a dentist who wanted to charge me hundreds to dig out the cause of an abscess...I was instructed by an old woman to treat the area with bakin' soda: the abscess popped and drained and hasn't come back (you think mebbe that dentist was less than honest?) In '81 I had multiple surgeries after a car accident: a review of the bills showed charges for stuff that wasn't done, double charges, over charges.

them's the real professionals, not the quacks, for ya

I've never really had any dealing with lawyers

the better (worse?) part of my clients are shysters: manipulative, opportunistic, parasitical, greedy, each and every one, men and women alike...I've turned away more than few who wanted me to work dirty.

Big accountancy scandals are newswrothy because they are rare

or, mebbe, cuz in those cases, somebody didn't get paid

we're not really the best rule followers over here

same here: our governor issued all the orders and mandates, and extensions of same, but acknowledged there would be little enforcement, which is pretty wise comin' as it did, from a moron

[FlashDangerpants]

extra special enlightened souls who all think exactly alike

c'mon, now: I never described any of 'em, or myself, that way

like minded natural rightists is closer, and -- even if most wouldn't think of themselves that way, or worry a jot about natural rights or moral fact -- that's what they'd be: unruly and raw

I guess that's the end of my griping.

accord (of a kind) in only 11 pages: must be a record

Probably true. That other thread is on page 354 now and they could have just decided that maybe there are moral facts but we don't know how to work out what they are by page 2.

I recommend reading a few good history books and comparing all the awful shit that happened to what's grinding your gears today, it's good for perspective.

recommendations?

Eric Hobsbawm - Age of Revolution. Should have about 50 fascinating things you'll like.

We both live in countries where we can call our president a houseplant or our prime minister a partially deflated Bulgarian sex doll and nobody claps us in irons. I don't know about you, but I have never had scurvy or smallpox, not even once. Even the stuff you compare to actual slavery is just minor annoyances like face masks.

We've never been forcibly drafted into any army and sent off to fight total strangers the way our grandads were, and their granddads had to avoid getting too drunk anywhere near the sea because otherwise they might wake up on a British ship and be told they had to fire a cannon at somebody.

Rule of law in Britain and America is pretty workable, and international law is maybe a work in progress, but such progress can be made. I wouldn't throw it all away to live as a goat in Nepal, but each to their own.

you're right, of course, but I am what I am: it's in my bones

I've never had a quack doctor prescribe me horse worming potions

I've had a real, licensed, doc push pain killers on me for my pleurisy, even after I told him no. I changed doctors. I had a dentist who wanted to charge me hundreds to dig out the cause of an abscess...I was instructed by an old woman to treat the area with bakin' soda: the abscess popped and drained and hasn't come back (you think mebbe that dentist was less than honest?) In '81 I had multiple surgeries after a car accident: a review of the bills showed charges for stuff that wasn't done, double charges, over charges.

them's the real professionals, not the quacks, for ya

I've never really had any dealing with lawyers

the better (worse?) part of my clients are shysters: manipulative, opportunistic, parasitical, greedy, each and every one, men and women alike...I've turned away more than few who wanted me to work dirty.

Seems to me you guys need a centrist 3rd party in your politics or you must address the outrageous gerrymandering situation.

Your doctors are notoriously incentivised to perform extra procedures and prescribe extra meds which is why they keep sicking fingers up your arses, and it's how you got an opioids crisis that the rest of the world doesn't have. It's obvious the USA will never have an NHS, so incremental improvements to Obamacare and Medicare to change the billing methods is the only plausible policy solution for the next 20 years.

Meanwhile your moderate Republicans (now known as RINOs and being hunted to extinction) have had sensible tort reform proposals ignored for decades. Your centrist Repubs have been almost eliminated now and there are no repercussion because even a psycho like Bobert is certain win in such a geryymandered district. AOC is there because she primaried a centrist (and possibly corrupt?) old man, and in such a safe Dem district that only the primary was a contest.

In both those cases though, these are self policing institutions. Lawyers only get disbarred when enough other lawyers are offended by their antics, and doctors likewise. Neither of those things has to remain true.

[FlashDangerpants]

I've turned away more than few who wanted me to work dirty.

Just out of curiosity, what sort of thing are they asking for there?

[henry quirk]

Eric Hobsbawm - Age of Revolution.

I'll take a gander...thanks

Seems to me you guys need a centrist 3rd party in your politics or you must address the outrageous gerrymandering situation.

those seem like band-aids on top of band-aids: I'd rather see the parties, and those benefitin' from gerrymandering, neutered instead unsuccessfully reined in

...so incremental improvements...

more band-aids

why not, instead, go after the disease itself instead treatin' symptoms?

Just out of curiosity, what sort of thing are they asking for there?

things I find immoral...I got no problem breakin' bad law, but fabricatin' information to make one look better or the other look worse, that's lyin' for profit; and cherrypickin' information, leavin' out details to, again, make one look better or the other look worse, that too is lyin' for profit

I'm not doin' that: it's wrong, for one; for another, if I have to testify (hasn't happened yet, but you never know) then, to save my butt, I'd have to lie in court (one atop another)

no, ain't doin' that: right up front I tell a prospective I find what I find, good bad, plenty, or meager...I won't edit, revise, or leave out anything

I'm a cvil & criminal researcher, by the way

[FrankGSterleJr]

The health of all children needs to be of real importance to us all, regardless of how well our own developing children are doing. A mentally sound future should be every child’s fundamental right — along with air, water, food and shelter — especially considering the very troubled world into which they never asked to enter.

[henry quirk]

The health of all children needs to be of real importance to us all, regardless of how well our own developing children are doing. A mentally sound future should be every child’s fundamental right — along with air, water, food and shelter — especially considering the very troubled world into which they never asked to enter.

seems to me: the one who brought junior into the world bears the responsibility for junior

I may have a thrd-party obligation -- thru my particular take on natural rights -- to defend junior, in the moment, from predation, but I'm not seein' how that in-the-moment obligation translates into a life-long, or childhood-long, one