Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Gary Childress
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:01 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:28 pm I see it to some degree on both sides of the American political aisle..
That's interesting. I don't see it much on the one side, but it's certainly the main strategy on the other. There's no conservative equivalent to CRT, so far as I can tell. I occasionally hear there might be "white supremacists" hovering in the wings somewhere, but nobody can ever find them when I ask, and if any of those anachronistic types still exist, certainly they have no broad appeal on the Right. They never did.
I see it to some extent in some conservatives who believe liberals are the cause of all America's problems. They fight liberals tooth and nail and don't seem to cooperate with them any more than liberals want to cooperate with conservatives. Trump was very much that way. He seemed to think that Democrats were an evil party. I mean, that's what the democrats think of the Republican party too.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:01 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:28 pm I see it to some degree on both sides of the American political aisle..
That's interesting. I don't see it much on the one side, but it's certainly the main strategy on the other. There's no conservative equivalent to CRT, so far as I can tell. I occasionally hear there might be "white supremacists" hovering in the wings somewhere, but nobody can ever find them when I ask, and if any of those anachronistic types still exist, certainly they have no broad appeal on the Right. They never did.
I see it to some extent in some conservatives who believe liberals are the cause of all America's problems. They fight liberals tooth and nail and don't seem to cooperate with them any more than liberals want to cooperate with conservatives.
That's interesting, Gary. In what way do you think the Left has offered conservatives an opportunity to "cooperate"? It seems to me that all they are offering them, especially through CRT, is the "opportunity" to become racist against themselves, convert to Socialism, surrender their children to the State, close their businesses, consent to watching neighbourhoods go up in smoke, defund the police, cease prosecuting crime, open the borders, and otherwise to capitulate to whatever else the Left wants.

I'm not seeing where the palm branches are being held out; I sincerely wish I could, because it would be reason for optimism. But maybe you can see something.
Gary Childress
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:11 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:01 pm
That's interesting. I don't see it much on the one side, but it's certainly the main strategy on the other. There's no conservative equivalent to CRT, so far as I can tell. I occasionally hear there might be "white supremacists" hovering in the wings somewhere, but nobody can ever find them when I ask, and if any of those anachronistic types still exist, certainly they have no broad appeal on the Right. They never did.
I see it to some extent in some conservatives who believe liberals are the cause of all America's problems. They fight liberals tooth and nail and don't seem to cooperate with them any more than liberals want to cooperate with conservatives.
That's interesting, Gary. In what way do you think the Left has offered conservatives an opportunity to "cooperate"? It seems to me that all they are offering them, especially through CRT, is the "opportunity" to become racist against themselves, convert to Socialism, surrender their children to the State, close their businesses, consent to watching neighbourhoods go up in smoke, defund the police, cease prosecuting crime, open the borders, and otherwise to capitulate to whatever else the Left wants.

I'm not seeing where the palm branches are being held out; I sincerely wish I could, because it would be reason for optimism. But maybe you can see something.
Well, they probably feel the same way. Who is going to be the first to extend a branch?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:24 pm Who is going to be the first to extend a branch?
Well, Jordan Peterson is one guy who's trying. He's been holding bi-partisan discussions with moderates from both sides. But to my knowledge, it hasn't de-escalated the problem yet. The radical voices are still the ones that seem to be being heard...and I think that's really a fault of the media, as much as anything.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:39 am I believe the CRTists are victims and pawns of foreign countries or the Islamists [Muslim Brotherhood] who want to destroy America and other non-Islamic countries from within.
I would say the Islamists have been highly opportunistic in eliciting the prejudices of CRT practicioners. But I know they didn't invent CRT. Its origins are manifestly in Neo-Marxism and French philosophy, not in Islam.

The Islamists, however, have seen how they can make useful idiots of the CRT set. They've invented a thing called "Islamophobia," to parallel things like "mysogeny" and "homophobia," and have invited the Leftists to consider it equivalent. And all the while, Islamic theology and practice in the Middle East, especially, is rabidly hostile to women and homosexuals to an extraordinary degree. But they've managed to "co-opt" CRT language to their agenda.

The key guy in making the Islam-CRT link is Edward Said, actually. But the CRT people have bought in, hook, line and sinker. They never do anything about the rights of their own "victim minorities" in Islamic lands. Islam gets a pass. But they spend all their time instead yammering at the West for being "Islamophobic."
I don't mean the Islamists are CRTs.
Islam do not condone the concept of race other than dividing people as either Muslim or non-Muslim as defined in the Quran or their own definition.
It is just the same where Islam do not agree with LBGT or feminism.

As you have noted, even when they despise race, LBGT, feminism, etc. they are fanning these ideologies [useful idiots as you say] at the present so that the country will weaken then they can take over easily in the future.
Thereafter, the Islamists will chop of the heads of the CRTists, the LBGT [Queer Theory], feminism and whatever they defined as haram [sinful and evil].
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 am Islam do not condone the concept of race
Well, historically, they have abused and enslaved blacks: the trans-Saharan slave trade was actually far bigger than the trans-Atlantic one. And they sure hate Jews, even today. So there actually is a fair bit of racism there. And, of course, there's sexism and other things, as you say.
Thereafter, the Islamists will chop of the heads of the CRTists, the LBGT [Queer Theory], feminism and whatever they defined as haram [sinful and evil].
Certainly the conservative Islamists have demonstrated they will go that way. But for now, and in the West, they are finding CRT serviceable to their purposes of criticizing the West and delivering Islam from possibility of criticism; so probably it won't be soon. But unless Islam radically changes its theology, or unless it never gains sufficient control of the West, that's what would probably have to follow eventually.
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henry quirk
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Gary asked: Who is going to be the first to extend a branch?

As I say: there can be no peace between the free man and the slaver. Any compromise or accommodation always favors the slaver. Olive branches are for free men in dispute. For the slaver, only no followed by appropriate self-defense, is appropriate.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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henry quirk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:29 pm Gary asked: Who is going to be the first to extend a branch?

As I say: there can be no peace between the free man and the slaver. Any compromise or accommodation always favors the slaver. Olive branches are for free men in dispute. For the slaver, only no followed by appropriate self-defense, is appropriate.
I notice that the way the game works is that the one side calls for bloody revolution until it gets in power, and then the cry becomes "unity." But "unity" doesn't mean any negotiating is going to happen or any equilibrium is being considered. Instead, it always seems to mean, "We won: give up what you care about, and accept our program 100% -- and if you don't, you're a bad person."
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henry quirk
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:20 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:29 pm Gary asked: Who is going to be the first to extend a branch?

As I say: there can be no peace between the free man and the slaver. Any compromise or accommodation always favors the slaver. Olive branches are for free men in dispute. For the slaver, only no followed by appropriate self-defense, is appropriate.
I notice that the way the game works is that the one side calls for bloody revolution until it gets in power, and then the cry becomes "unity." But "unity" doesn't mean any negotiating is going to happen or any equilibrium is being considered. Instead, it always seems to mean, "We won: give up what you care about, and accept our program 100% -- and if you don't, you're a bad person."
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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 am Islam do not condone the concept of race
Well, historically, they have abused and enslaved blacks: the trans-Saharan slave trade was actually far bigger than the trans-Atlantic one. And they sure hate Jews, even today. So there actually is a fair bit of racism there. And, of course, there's sexism and other things, as you say.
I don't think the hatred of Jews by Islam is a question of race but rather the reference to those who believe in Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and the OT, etc. They were hated not because of their skin color but because they were blamed for corrupting their religious texts where Muhammad was supposedly the new prophet therein.
Thereafter, the Islamists will chop of the heads of the CRTists, the LBGT [Queer Theory], feminism and whatever they defined as haram [sinful and evil].
Certainly the conservative Islamists have demonstrated they will go that way. But for now, and in the West, they are finding CRT serviceable to their purposes of criticizing the West and delivering Islam from possibility of criticism; so probably it won't be soon. But unless Islam radically changes its theology, or unless it never gains sufficient control of the West, that's what would probably have to follow eventually.
In a way it is in the meanwhile the Muslims are redirecting attention away from themselves.
However the fact is there is no way Islam as stipulated by Allah's command in the Quran can ever be changed at all.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Trump's Executive Order on Critical Race Theory

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:46 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:17 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:13 am Islam do not condone the concept of race
Well, historically, they have abused and enslaved blacks: the trans-Saharan slave trade was actually far bigger than the trans-Atlantic one. And they sure hate Jews, even today. So there actually is a fair bit of racism there. And, of course, there's sexism and other things, as you say.
I don't think the hatred of Jews by Islam is a question of race but rather the reference to those who believe in Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and the OT, etc. They were hated not because of their skin color but because they were blamed for corrupting their religious texts where Muhammad was supposedly the new prophet therein.
Initially, Mohammed thought the Jews would join him. He tried to woo them in Medina. He even shaped his own message to reflect the Jewish Scriptures, praising their prophets, as he did the theology of the Nestorians. He got most of his theology wrong, since he was illiterate and couldn't remember things correctly, but he tried very hard. But when the Jews didn't embrace him, he wrote the more aggressive things he wrote in the Koran, and then he started going after them with the sword. History has showed how that worked out.

Whatever his first reasons, his followers have certainly taken the view that just being a Jew is a reason to be hated. So that's full-blown racism, for sure.
Thereafter, the Islamists will chop of the heads of the CRTists, the LBGT [Queer Theory], feminism and whatever they defined as haram [sinful and evil].
Certainly the conservative Islamists have demonstrated they will go that way. But for now, and in the West, they are finding CRT serviceable to their purposes of criticizing the West and delivering Islam from possibility of criticism; so probably it won't be soon. But unless Islam radically changes its theology, or unless it never gains sufficient control of the West, that's what would probably have to follow eventually.
In a way it is in the meanwhile the Muslims are redirecting attention away from themselves.[/quote]
Yes, that's the point. They've turned any attempt to criticize or reform them into "Islamophobia," so concern cannot even be spoken. Meanwhile, their conservative elements are not less anti-Semitic and hostile to women, heretics, converts and infidels. They can still do all the things they have done, especially in lands where they hold control. But they are manipulating the conscience of the West in such a way as to attempt to put their religion above criticism.
However the fact is there is no way Islam as stipulated by Allah's command in the Quran can ever be changed at all.
It depends. They certainly would have to abandon the post-Medina Mohammed, and I agree that's highly unlikely.
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