the land of the free

[henry quirk]

Well, there is always going to be a state

If you mean to say there's always gonna be graspin' opportunists lookin' to profit on others, then you're right. If, though, you mean to say Leviathan is inevitable, then, nah, I don't agree. The State coalesces when decent folks turn a blind eye, or allow themselves to get distracted. It births itself when that *fatal tendency is unchecked.


there will always be a government, because that's what most people want.

What most want is to live as they see fit without the constant, overarchin' threat of predation. To that end, folks coordinate for mutual defense to preserve individual life, liberty, and property. We call such coordination government but this is a mistake (one that promotes governance and empowers legislators). Bastiat was right on the money when he declared it, instead, as **The Law.

-----

*A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.


**What Is Law?

What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual right to lawful defense.

Each of us has a natural right — from God — to defend his person, his liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an extension of our faculties? If every person has the right to defend even by force — his person, his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights constantly. Thus the principle of collective right — its reason for existing, its lawfulness — is based on individual right. And the common force that protects this collective right cannot logically have any other purpose or any other mission than that for which it acts as a substitute. Thus, since an individual cannot lawfully use force against the person, liberty, or property of another individual, then the common force — for the same reason — cannot lawfully be used to destroy the person, liberty, or property of individuals or groups.

Such a perversion of force would be, in both cases, contrary to our premise. Force has been given to us to defend our own individual rights. Who will dare to say that force has been given to us to destroy the equal rights of our brothers? Since no individual acting separately can lawfully use force to destroy the rights of others, does it not logically follow that the same principle also applies to the common force that is nothing more than the organized combination of the individual forces?

If this is true, then nothing can be more evident than this: The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=512141 time=1622167565 user_id=472]
[/quote]

Other than about society, law, psychology, and government, you're absolutely right.

[henry quirk]

Other than about society, law, psychology, and government, you're absolutely right.

Sez the guy who thinks the Morlock rulin' over (and eatin') the Eloi is a fine thing.

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=512155 time=1622195471 user_id=472]
[b]Other than about society, law, psychology, and government, you're absolutely right.[/b]

Sez the guy who thinks the Morlock rulin' over (and eatin') the Eloi is a fine thing.

👎
[/quote]

The Eloi chose their fate and the Morlock were caring for them. What's your problem?

[Age]

Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.

Just like the BELIEF that there is NOT One Truth creates a person who is NOT ACTUALLY FREE, at all.

Subscribing to this rigid and controlled BELIEF also DISTORTS CLARITY.

People with this BELIEF endeavor to subscribe "others" to the SAME BELIEF. As can be SEEN and PROVEN throughout this forum.

And, this Truth REALLY irritates those with that ACTUAL BELIEF.

[Advocate]

[quote=Age post_id=512174 time=1622205774 user_id=16237]
[quote=Lacewing post_id=511611 time=1621608048 user_id=11228]
Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.
[/quote]

Just like the BELIEF that there is NOT One Truth creates a person who is NOT ACTUALLY FREE, at all.

Subscribing to this rigid and controlled BELIEF also DISTORTS CLARITY.

People with this BELIEF endeavor to subscribe "others" to the SAME BELIEF. As can be SEEN and PROVEN throughout this forum.

And, this Truth REALLY irritates those with that ACTUAL BELIEF.
[/quote]

Two much emphasis means no emphasis at all. Care to indicate what the particular emphasis is Supposed to be there? Why shouldn't your sentences be read as though there is no additional emphasis?

[henry quirk]

Other than about society, law, psychology, and government, you're absolutely right.

Sez the guy who thinks the Morlock rulin' over (and eatin') the Eloi is a fine thing.

The Eloi chose their fate and the Morlock were caring for them. What's your problem?

The Eloi were hoodwinked; the Morlocks ate the Eloi.

You don't see the rather large problem in that arrangement?

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=512176 time=1622206275 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=512167 time=1622204777 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=512155 time=1622195471 user_id=472]
[b]Other than about society, law, psychology, and government, you're absolutely right.[/b]

Sez the guy who thinks the Morlock rulin' over (and eatin') the Eloi is a fine thing.

👎
[/quote]

The Eloi chose their fate and the Morlock were caring for them. What's your problem?
[/quote]

The Eloi were hoodwinked; the Morlocks [u]ate[/u] the Eloi.

You don't see the rather large problem in that arrangement?
[/quote]

They evolved into two separate species. One used their brains to become more, and the others used their feelings to remain less, just like modern society. If anything, the Eloi were originally the wealthy who got cared for so fucking hard that they never had to do anything again. As for eating them, there's no moral issue with that so long as they have good lives.

[Lacewing]

Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.

Just like the BELIEF that there is NOT One Truth creates a person who is NOT ACTUALLY FREE, at all.

What do you think a belief is? What do you think being free is?

Subscribing to this rigid and controlled BELIEF also DISTORTS CLARITY.

How is it a belief not to hold a belief?

People with this BELIEF endeavor to subscribe "others" to the SAME BELIEF. As can be SEEN and PROVEN throughout this forum.

So, saying that everyone can believe whatever they want is an attempt to subscribe others to the same belief?

And, this Truth REALLY irritates those with that ACTUAL BELIEF.

This appears to describe you.

Your projections fail.

[Age]

Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.

Just like the BELIEF that there is NOT One Truth creates a person who is NOT ACTUALLY FREE, at all.

What do you think a belief is?

A 'belief' is believing some thing. And, 'you' would not believe some thing if it were not true, correct?

What do you think being free is?

To start with NOT having nor holding a belief, nor an assumption.

Being 'free' is being completely and FULLY OPEN. And, having or holding a belief, believing or assuming some thing is true, is obviously NOT being Truly FULLY OPEN.

Subscribing to this rigid and controlled BELIEF also DISTORTS CLARITY.

How is it a belief not to hold a belief?

Who here said, "to hold a belief is a belief"?

I CERTAINLY NEVER said this, NOR EVER even thought this.

People with this BELIEF endeavor to subscribe "others" to the SAME BELIEF. As can be SEEN and PROVEN throughout this forum.

So, saying that everyone can believe whatever they want is an attempt to subscribe others to the same belief?

Are you saying, or suggesting, here that NOT EVERY one can believe whatever they want to believe?

Also, WHERE is the 'belief' here.

Either EVERY one can believe whatever they want to believe, or they can NOT. But, again, either way WHERE is the 'belief' here?

Just because some 'thing' is True, and as such is an ACTUAL FACT, this does NOT mean that a BELIEF is existing ANYWHERE.

And, this Truth REALLY irritates those with that ACTUAL BELIEF.

This appears to describe you.

'What', EXACTLY, appears, to 'you', to describe 'me'?

Your projections fail.

What are 'you' talking about here? 'What projection'?

What 'Truth' are 'you' referring to, what 'ACTUAL BELIEF' are 'you' referring to as well, and, WHO, supposedly, has this 'ACTUAL BELIEF'?

[Skepdick]

The question at hand is whether those constrictions are reasonable, and i say no.

You can take out the adjective "reasonable" and replace it with any other (preferably one held to high social praise) to pretend that your objection should be noted.

[Skepdick]

Freedom is the ability to choose.

Does that include the ability to choose who chooses for me?

Because that's how delegating responsibilities to proxies/representatives (be they individuals, attorneys or governments) works.

[henry quirk]

They evolved into two separate species. One used their brains to become more, and the others used their feelings to remain less, just like modern society. If anything, the Eloi were originally the wealthy who got cared for so fucking hard that they never had to do anything again.

Yeah, I read the book.


As for eating them, there's no moral issue with that so long as they have good lives.

Dear Lord, you actually believe this?

Have a good life then off to the abattoir with you...never mind that you might not wanna be on the menu.

You're a horrible human being.

[Age]

America is just bullying with extra steps.

There is no such thing as a free land, or free country, or free society. Freedom is not a social condition provided by some social/political system. Freedom doesn't pertain to societies at all.

Freedom only pertains to individuals and their capacity to consciously choose what they do. Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

Very few individuals truly want freedom, because freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life, their success or failure to live and enjoy their life depending entirely on their own choices and actions. Most of humanity is terrified of that scary responsibility, gladly surrendering their freedom to any social or political system that promises them safety, security, and escape from the demands of a ruthless demanding reality.

Living life successfully is hard and the world is a dangerous scary place. Very few want freedom enough to face the risks freedom entails or to do the hard work required to achieve it, so they settle for something less, like a government that promises to protect them, and watch out for their welfare, and provide them with security and safety and whateverl else they ought to have (as their right), without having to earn it, and all it costs them is a little freedom--at first.

Here is A PRIME EXAMPLE of how one's own views effects the way they actually SEE things.

[Age]

Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

That's exactly why it Must be provided by someone else. It's not exactly freedom if you can Only get it at the point of a gun. That requires living in a world where resources were available to you in the first place.

There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

If you're waiting for some political or social policy or system to provide you freedom, you will never be free. Not many really want freedom in any case, but anyone who does and is willing to pay the price (which almost never requires resorting to force), can achieve it.

As long as you are AWARE that 'you' are "free", only under the rule and order of "others".