the land of the free

[Advocate]

America is just bullying with extra steps.

[BeatriceMom]

You need to understand that any freedom has limitations, we are daily bound hand and foot by laws and moral and ethical norms.

[Advocate]

[quote=BeatriceMom post_id=511603 time=1621604177 user_id=21786]
You need to understand that any freedom has limitations, we are daily bound hand and foot by laws and moral and ethical norms.
[/quote]

The question at hand is whether those constrictions are reasonable, and i say no.

[Sculptor]

Freedom to can mean restricting freedom from.

Freedom to carry guns means loss of freedom of movement. freedom from fear of getting shot.

Freedom from a pandemic means temporary restrictions of movement, and attitre.

[Lacewing]

Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.

[Advocate]

[quote=Sculptor post_id=511607 time=1621606229 user_id=17400]
[i]Freedom to[/i] can mean restricting [i]freedom from.[/i]

Freedom to carry guns means loss of freedom of movement. freedom from fear of getting shot.

Freedom from a pandemic means temporary restrictions of movement, and attitre.
[/quote]

Freedom is the ability to choose. Being free from risk if you're forced to wear a mask only means you're trying to show that every restriction comes with an associated freedom from whatever you can't have, and that's not meaningful when the choice is someone else's.

[Walker]

It's only the land of the free when it's the home of the brave
When it's the land of the fearful it's the home of the slave
When it's the land of the greedy it's the home of the needy
In the land of the fed what is needed?

[RCSaunders]

America is just bullying with extra steps.

There is no such thing as a free land, or free country, or free society. Freedom is not a social condition provided by some social/political system. Freedom doesn't pertain to societies at all.

Freedom only pertains to individuals and their capacity to consciously choose what they do. Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

Very few individuals truly want freedom, because freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life, their success or failure to live and enjoy their life depending entirely on their own choices and actions. Most of humanity is terrified of that scary responsibility, gladly surrendering their freedom to any social or political system that promises them safety, security, and escape from the demands of a ruthless demanding reality.

Living life successfully is hard and the world is a dangerous scary place. Very few want freedom enough to face the risks freedom entails or to do the hard work required to achieve it, so they settle for something less, like a government that promises to protect them, and watch out for their welfare, and provide them with security and safety and whateverl else they ought to have (as their right), without having to earn it, and all it costs them is a little freedom--at first.

[Advocate]

[quote=RCSaunders post_id=511760 time=1621734440 user_id=16196]Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.
[/quote]

That's exactly why it Must be provided by someone else. It's not exactly freedom if you can Only get it at the point of a gun. That requires living in a world where resources were available to you in the first place.

[RCSaunders]

Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

That's exactly why it Must be provided by someone else. It's not exactly freedom if you can Only get it at the point of a gun. That requires living in a world where resources were available to you in the first place.

There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

If you're waiting for some political or social policy or system to provide you freedom, you will never be free. Not many really want freedom in any case, but anyone who does and is willing to pay the price (which almost never requires resorting to force), can achieve it.

[Advocate]

[quote=RCSaunders post_id=511858 time=1621817814 user_id=16196]
[quote=Advocate post_id=511767 time=1621737543 user_id=15238]
[quote=RCSaunders post_id=511760 time=1621734440 user_id=16196]Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.
[/quote]

That's exactly why it Must be provided by someone else. It's not exactly freedom if you can Only get it at the point of a gun. That requires living in a world where resources were available to you in the first place.
[/quote]There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

If you're waiting for some political or social policy or system to provide you freedom, you will never be free. Not many really want freedom in any case, but anyone who does and is willing to pay the price (which almost never requires resorting to force), can achieve it.
[/quote]

There are literally billions who tried it your way their whole lives and died destitute. Every person for themselves is the opposite of civilized. It's regressive, it's brutal, it's inhumane, and it's stupid. We form governments in the first place because they are necessary and capable beyond what we can achieve on our own. (and that's nothing to do with any Particular government, since that's where most of your minds immediately went). Trying to get freedom on one's own will indeed work for millions. Is that sufficient?

[henry quirk]

There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

Name one, please.

Certainly, there are folks who've learned to successfully navigate oppressive govs, free men and women.

I'm bettin', though, every last one of these free men and women would say yes, I'm free but -- no, RC -- I'm not livin' as I would choose. I would choose to be a free man openly. I would choose to not live with worry of agents of the State comin' into my home at 3am to haul me away or to shoot me, simply becuz I am a free man. I would prefer there was no State.

-----

We form governments in the first place because they are necessary and capable beyond what we can achieve on our own.

No. We form voluntary alliances to accomplish that which is impossible for one. We have governments thrust upon us by psychopaths and opportunists (governments accepted only by weak wills or indoctrinated minds).

[RCSaunders]

There are literally billions who tried it your way their whole lives and died destitute. Every person for themselves is the opposite of civilized. It's regressive, it's brutal, it's inhumane, and it's stupid. We form governments in the first place because they are necessary and capable beyond what we can achieve on our own. (and that's nothing to do with any Particular government, since that's where most of your minds immediately went). Trying to get freedom on one's own will indeed work for millions. Is that sufficient?

Sufficient for what? LIfe is tough. There are no guarantees.

Most pursue what they call freedom without ever understanding that freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life, and what they are really pursuing is some idea of freedom from danger, and risk, and hard work, and having to learn all they possibly can and do all the possibly can to earn and deserve their life. It's not freedom they really want, but a safe "nice" life of guarantees they think they have a right to just because they were born. Reality does not grant freedom to those who defy reality's requirements.

Even if it were possible for most to have what they believe freedom is, it would only mean they would destroy their lives that much quicker. What most people mean by freedom is freedom to pursue any hedonistic pleasure without worrying about consequences or having to pay for them. There kind of freedom would just lead to their self-destruction.

[Advocate]

>Sufficient for what? LIfe is tough. There are no guarantees.

That's the beginning of the problem, not the answer. We form societies Because life is tough so that we can Get some guarantees. The entire point of social interaction all throughout history has been because without guarantees is an insufficient and shitty way to live for most people.

>Most pursue what they call freedom without ever understanding that freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life,

That ultimate variety of freedom is neither meaningful nor has it been possible throughout most of history in most places for most people.

>and what they are really pursuing is some idea of freedom from danger, and risk, and hard work, and having to learn all they possibly can and do all the possibly can to earn and deserve their life. It's not freedom they really want, but a safe "nice" life of guarantees they think they have a right to just because they were born. Reality does not grant freedom to those who defy reality's requirements.

Reality is not the benchmark, it's the opposition. Society exists to be a fix for the shit that you claim as a final answer.

>Even if it were possible for most to have what they believe freedom is, it would only mean they would destroy their lives that much quicker. What most people mean by freedom is freedom to pursue any hedonistic pleasure without worrying about consequences or having to pay for them. There kind of freedom would just lead to their self-destruction.

The worst kind of straw man is one that starts with the worst possible interpretation of that which they parody.

[RCSaunders]

There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

Name one, please.

Certainly, there are folks who've learned to successfully navigate oppressive govs, free men and women.

I'm bettin', though, every last one of these free men and women would say yes, I'm free but -- no, RC -- I'm not livin' as I would choose. I would choose to be a free man openly. I would choose to not live with worry of agents of the State comin' into my home at 3am to haul me away or to shoot me, simply becuz I am a free man. I would prefer there was no State.

Well, there is always going to be a state, just as there is always going to be disease, natural disasters, dangers and risks in life. Reality is what it is. To live in it successfully one must deal with that reality on its terms changing those things one can and learning how to adapt to those things one cannot. Unless you eliminate 99 percent of the people in the world, there will always be a government, because that's what most people want.

But government is little or no threat at all to the free. In most cases, the government does not even know they exist else the free have diverted any government threat to them in other ways. Some even pay taxes or bribes as a way of dealing with inevitable inconveniences of living in some societies rather than waste their own time, life, and freedom fighting battles that cannot be won, in the same way they build fences to protect their property from wild animals, or pay an exterminator to eliminate other pests. Nothing of value, including freedom, is free.

That is the reason most of the free are millionaires, The Privileged:

There are 46.8 million millionaires in the world. Of those millionaires, 18.6 million live in the United States. I have no idea how many of those millionaires are living their lives as free individuals, ...

They do not all choose to live their lives as free individuals, but many do. Most are never known, and live very quiet private family lives that are unremarkable. Of course there are some horrible millionaires, just as their are horrible people in all states of wealth. All the one's I've known personally not only lived free and interesting lives, but are the best people I've ever known. Check out the link, it might surprise you.