the land of the free

How should society be organised, if at all?

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RCSaunders
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Re: the land of the free

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:08 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:47 am
Advocate wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:30 pm America is just bullying with extra steps.
There is no such thing as a free land, or free country, or free society. Freedom is not a social condition provided by some social/political system. Freedom doesn't pertain to societies at all.

Freedom only pertains to individuals and their capacity to consciously choose what they do. Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

Very few individuals truly want freedom, because freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life, their success or failure to live and enjoy their life depending entirely on their own choices and actions. Most of humanity is terrified of that scary responsibility, gladly surrendering their freedom to any social or political system that promises them safety, security, and escape from the demands of a ruthless demanding reality.

Living life successfully is hard and the world is a dangerous scary place. Very few want freedom enough to face the risks freedom entails or to do the hard work required to achieve it, so they settle for something less, like a government that promises to protect them, and watch out for their welfare, and provide them with security and safety and whateverl else they ought to have (as their right), without having to earn it, and all it costs them is a little freedom--at first.
Here is A PRIME EXAMPLE of how one's own views effects the way they actually SEE things.
Idiots frequently confuse, "seeing," the conscious perceptual experience, with, "seeing," the metaphor for understanding. I do waste my time on idiots.
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RCSaunders
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Re: the land of the free

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Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:10 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:56 am
Advocate wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:39 am

That's exactly why it Must be provided by someone else. It's not exactly freedom if you can Only get it at the point of a gun. That requires living in a world where resources were available to you in the first place.
There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

If you're waiting for some political or social policy or system to provide you freedom, you will never be free. Not many really want freedom in any case, but anyone who does and is willing to pay the price (which almost never requires resorting to force), can achieve it.
As long as you are AWARE that 'you' are "free", only under the rule and order of "others".
I have no idea what you are talking about and I doubt you have either, since you know absolutely nothing about how I live. Freedom does not mean freedom from reality, freedom from the laws of physics, freedom from the existence of other human beings, or freedom from the requirements of reality and one's own nature to provide all one needs to survive by their own effort. Freedom does not mean some mystical Utopia where everything is the way you would like it, "where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day." ["Home on the Range"]
Age
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:08 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:47 am
There is no such thing as a free land, or free country, or free society. Freedom is not a social condition provided by some social/political system. Freedom doesn't pertain to societies at all.

Freedom only pertains to individuals and their capacity to consciously choose what they do. Freedom means being able to choose how to live and be whatever one can without the interference of any other individuals or agencies. It cannot be provided by anyone else and every individual who chooses to live their life freely must establish their own freedom.

Very few individuals truly want freedom, because freedom means being totally responsible for one's own life, their success or failure to live and enjoy their life depending entirely on their own choices and actions. Most of humanity is terrified of that scary responsibility, gladly surrendering their freedom to any social or political system that promises them safety, security, and escape from the demands of a ruthless demanding reality.

Living life successfully is hard and the world is a dangerous scary place. Very few want freedom enough to face the risks freedom entails or to do the hard work required to achieve it, so they settle for something less, like a government that promises to protect them, and watch out for their welfare, and provide them with security and safety and whateverl else they ought to have (as their right), without having to earn it, and all it costs them is a little freedom--at first.
Here is A PRIME EXAMPLE of how one's own views effects the way they actually SEE things.
Idiots frequently confuse, "seeing," the conscious perceptual experience, with, "seeing," the metaphor for understanding.
Do they?

And, by the way, how do 'you' define the word 'idiot' here?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm I do waste my time on idiots.
If that is what you do, then okay, and continue.
Age
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:23 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:10 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:56 am There are literally millions of people in this world who are living their lives exactly as they choose who have made themselves free, some even in countries with very oppressive governments.

If you're waiting for some political or social policy or system to provide you freedom, you will never be free. Not many really want freedom in any case, but anyone who does and is willing to pay the price (which almost never requires resorting to force), can achieve it.
As long as you are AWARE that 'you' are "free", only under the rule and order of "others".
I have no idea what you are talking about and I doubt you have either, since you know absolutely nothing about how I live.
If that is what you BELIEVE, then so be it.

Also, do you BELIEVE that 'you' live NOT under the rule and order of "others"?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:23 pm Freedom does not mean freedom from reality, freedom from the laws of physics, freedom from the existence of other human beings, or freedom from the requirements of reality and one's own nature to provide all one needs to survive by their own effort. Freedom does not mean some mystical Utopia where everything is the way you would like it, "where never is heard a discouraging word, and the skies are not cloudy all day." ["Home on the Range"]
If 'you' BELIEVE that 'you' are FREE and living EXACTLY as 'you' choose, then so be it.

You MUST BE Truly happy, correct?

If no, then WHY NOT?
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RCSaunders
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Re: the land of the free

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:30 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:08 pm

Here is A PRIME EXAMPLE of how one's own views effects the way they actually SEE things.
Idiots frequently confuse, "seeing," the conscious perceptual experience, with, "seeing," the metaphor for understanding.
Do they?

And, by the way, how do 'you' define the word 'idiot' here?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm I do waste my time on idiots.
If that is what you do, then okay, and continue.
Well, don't worry about it. I'll have to attend to some other things now, I've wasted enough time here already.
Age
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:30 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm
Idiots frequently confuse, "seeing," the conscious perceptual experience, with, "seeing," the metaphor for understanding.
Do they?

And, by the way, how do 'you' define the word 'idiot' here?
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:14 pm I do waste my time on idiots.
If that is what you do, then okay, and continue.
Well, don't worry about it. I'll have to attend to some other things now, I've wasted enough time here already.
I am CERTAIN NOT 'worrying' about ANY thing here.

Also, as I was alluding to elsewhere, this 'running away' is the TYPICAL RESPONSE by human beings in the days when this was being written, when asked just VERY SIMPLE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS in regards to 'their' CLAIMS.
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Lacewing
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Lacewing »

Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 2:32 pm...
Your responses don't make sense. You appear to have a lot of noise in your head, so I suggest that you ask all of those questions of yourself; they don't appear to have to do with anyone else. I wish you well.
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RCSaunders
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Re: the land of the free

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:34 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:30 pm

Do they?

And, by the way, how do 'you' define the word 'idiot' here?



If that is what you do, then okay, and continue.
Well, don't worry about it. I'll have to attend to some other things now, I've wasted enough time here already.
I am CERTAIN NOT 'worrying' about ANY thing here.

Also, as I was alluding to elsewhere, this 'running away' is the TYPICAL RESPONSE by human beings in the days when this was being written, when asked just VERY SIMPLE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS in regards to 'their' CLAIMS.
I don't understand why you ask any questions since you already know everything. Aparently, you can't help yourself and I feel sorry for you.
simplicity
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Re: the land of the free

Post by simplicity »

Lacewing wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:40 pm Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.
Freedom is not doing what you want, instead, it's doing what you must.
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Lacewing
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Lacewing »

simplicity wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:08 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:40 pm Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.
Freedom is not doing what you want, instead, it's doing what you must.
Can you please explain more? What must you do?
Age
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Age »

Lacewing wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 4:36 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 2:32 pm...
Your responses don't make sense.
My responses were made of twelve sentences, with eight of those sentences being just clarifying questions posed to you.

If NONE of those sentences make sense to you, then so be it.
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 4:36 pm You appear to have a lot of noise in your head, so I suggest that you ask all of those questions of yourself;
If it is 'you' who can NOT make sense of what I wrote, then the, so called, "noise" is far more likely to be in that head.

WHY would 'I' ask 'me' questions in regards to NOT what 'i' said but to what 'you' ACTUALLY said, and wrote?
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 4:36 pm they don't appear to have to do with anyone else.
LOL 'you', "lacewing", was the one who said and stated those 'things', so those clarifying questions have everything to do with 'you'.
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 4:36 pm I wish you well.
I wish you well too, especially considering not much makes sense to you.
Age
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Re: the land of the free

Post by Age »

RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:10 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:34 pm
Well, don't worry about it. I'll have to attend to some other things now, I've wasted enough time here already.
I am CERTAIN NOT 'worrying' about ANY thing here.

Also, as I was alluding to elsewhere, this 'running away' is the TYPICAL RESPONSE by human beings in the days when this was being written, when asked just VERY SIMPLE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS in regards to 'their' CLAIMS.
I don't understand why you ask any questions since you already know everything.
To SHOW and REVEAL to "others" just how much, or how little, 'you', human beings, could really back up in your CLAIMS here.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:10 pm Aparently, you can't help yourself and I feel sorry for you.
I, supposedly, can NOT help "myself" in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, there is absolutely NO need AT ALL to feel sorry for 'me'.

Remember it is 'you' who BELIEVES 'you' are FREE, and because of that BELIEF 'you' can NOT YET even SEE that it is actually 'you' who is being controlled and who is under the rules and laws of "others"
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RCSaunders
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Re: the land of the free

Post by RCSaunders »

Age wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 5:57 am
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:10 pm
Age wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:40 pm

I am CERTAIN NOT 'worrying' about ANY thing here.

Also, as I was alluding to elsewhere, this 'running away' is the TYPICAL RESPONSE by human beings in the days when this was being written, when asked just VERY SIMPLE CLARIFYING QUESTIONS in regards to 'their' CLAIMS.
I don't understand why you ask any questions since you already know everything.
To SHOW and REVEAL to "others" just how much, or how little, 'you', human beings, could really back up in your CLAIMS here.
RCSaunders wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:10 pm Aparently, you can't help yourself and I feel sorry for you.
I, supposedly, can NOT help "myself" in regards to 'what', EXACTLY?

And, there is absolutely NO need AT ALL to feel sorry for 'me'.

Remember it is 'you' who BELIEVES 'you' are FREE, and because of that BELIEF 'you' can NOT YET even SEE that it is actually 'you' who is being controlled and who is under the rules and laws of "others"
If you say so. I'll live with it.
mickthinks
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Re: the land of the free

Post by mickthinks »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 9:50 pmThat is the reason most of the free are millionaires, The Privileged
Ah, the myth of the American Dream and all its self-made billionaires! https://inequality.org/research/selfmad ... ting-rich/
simplicity
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Re: the land of the free

Post by simplicity »

Lacewing wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 9:22 pm
simplicity wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:08 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:40 pm Maintaining freedom of thought is one of the most effective things a person can do toward thinking and acting with clarity. Subscribing to any kind of rigid and controlled beliefs distorts clarity, as it must to survive! Such a person is not actually free. And such people endeavor to subscribe others to those illusions of freedom too.
Freedom is not doing what you want, instead, it's doing what you must.
Can you please explain more? What must you do?
Clarity gives rise to wisdom, and wisdom to action.
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