the prime failure of public opinion

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Advocate
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the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Advocate »

Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
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Sculptor
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Sculptor »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:59 am Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
Depends on what you mean by "better".
Most people think their views are "better" since they have already rejected those of others.
That would mean you advice would apply to most everyone, which is absurd.

And what about the people that regard their view that democracy is a good system is a better opinion than average?
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

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[quote=Sculptor post_id=511172 time=1621323817 user_id=17400]
[quote=Advocate post_id=511158 time=1621306777 user_id=15238]
Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
[/quote]

Depends on what you mean by "better".
Most people think their views are "better" since they have already rejected those of others.
That would mean you advice would apply to most everyone, which is absurd.

And what about the people that regard their view that democracy is a good system is a better opinion than average?
[/quote]

Your questions do not apply to the given scenario which includes both "logical" and "above average". Your questions are regarding people who have delusions and "absurd". Do you see how they are unrelated?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:59 am Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
Walker
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Walker »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:20 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:59 am Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
Stalin killed the intellectuals.
The intellectuals have above average ideas.
Therefore: Anyone whose ideas are better than average should also logically be for a system that rewards intellectuals, such as representative republic with democratically elected representatives, with constitutional safeguards of power checks and balances. It is a system created by intellectuals that allows them to thrive and the world to prosper to chunkiness.
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=511224 time=1621344053 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=511158 time=1621306777 user_id=15238]
Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
[/quote]
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
[/quote]

I said "are" and you said "thinks so". These two things are entirely different.
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Walker post_id=511226 time=1621345786 user_id=11599]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=511224 time=1621344053 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=511158 time=1621306777 user_id=15238]
Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
[/quote]
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
[/quote]
Stalin killed the intellectuals.
The intellectuals have above average ideas.
Therefore: Anyone whose ideas are better than average should also logically be [i]for[/i] a system that rewards intellectuals, such as representative republic with democratically elected representatives, with constitutional safeguards of power checks and balances. It is a system created by intellectuals that allows them to thrive and the world to prosper to chunkiness.
[/quote]

Representative anything does not reward intellect, quite the contrary. Representing the average Cannot reward the above-average.
Republics are based on equality of representation or whatever, they don't/can't advance intellect over the common.
Democratically elected always means whoever has the biggest voice gets heard, not who has the best voice.
Constitutional safeguards are not about best ideas but least bad ones.

Nothing you've said indicates even the potential for elevating good ideas, and in practice has shown to do the opposite.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:20 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:59 am Anyone who's ideas are better than average should also logically be against democracy.
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
I said "are" and you said "thinks so". These two things are entirely different.
Well, not until you define precisely who gets to say who they (the "better"ones) are." If that person is them, then it's only a "thinks so."

So who decides?
Walker
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Walker »

Lake Wobegon is where all the children are above average.

(hint: Lake Wobegon is where everyone is.)
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=511241 time=1621348874 user_id=9431]
[quote=Advocate post_id=511230 time=1621346257 user_id=15238]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=511224 time=1621344053 user_id=9431]

This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
[/quote]

I said "are" and you said "thinks so". These two things are entirely different.
[/quote]
Well, not until you define precisely who gets to say who [i]they[/i] (the "better"ones) are." If that person is [i]them[/i], then it's only a "thinks so."

So who decides?
[/quote]

"Who gets to decide?" is a separate question that applies to All ideologies, so i ignore when it's referenced generally against any specific one. It's a distraction.
Walker
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Walker »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:02 pm
Walker wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:49 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:20 pm
This seems to mean, "Anybody who thinks he's elite should oppose a system that allows those he's contemptuous of to have any power." Stalin would agree, of course.
Stalin killed the intellectuals.
The intellectuals have above average ideas.
Therefore: Anyone whose ideas are better than average should also logically be for a system that rewards intellectuals, such as representative republic with democratically elected representatives, with constitutional safeguards of power checks and balances. It is a system created by intellectuals that allows them to thrive and the world to prosper to chunkiness.
Representative anything does not reward intellect, quite the contrary. Representing the average Cannot reward the above-average.
Republics are based on equality of representation or whatever, they don't/can't advance intellect over the common.
Democratically elected always means whoever has the biggest voice gets heard, not who has the best voice.
Constitutional safeguards are not about best ideas but least bad ones.

Nothing you've said indicates even the potential for elevating good ideas, and in practice has shown to do the opposite.
You neglected the historical conclusion, namely:

A representative republic in which the representatives are democratically elected is a system created by intellectuals that allows them to thrive and the world to prosper.

Note, created by intellectuals. Proven intellectuals at the time, and by history which doesn't require your opinion.

Lake Wobegon is where all the children are above average.

Your notions of average are unproven by history, and the system created by intellectuals.
Walker
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Walker »

Fill a big jar with jelly beans.
Have 10,000 average people honestly guess the unknown number.
Average the guesses.
Count the jelly beans.
The average guesstimate will be close to if not identical to the actual number.

Therefore, true intellectuals and not the pretenders know to listen to average.
Hopefully this will correct your erroneous notions of average.

(ain't science wonderful?)
Advocate
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Walker post_id=511247 time=1621350903 user_id=11599]
Fill a big jar with jelly beans.
Have 10,000 average people honestly guess the unknown number.
Average the guesses.
Count the jelly beans.
The average guesstimate will be close to if not identical to the actual number.

Therefore, true intellectuals and not the pretenders know to listen to average.
Hopefully this will correct your erroneous notions of average.

(ain't science wonderful?)
[/quote]

That's not how knowledge works. If the best you can do is collective guess, you're not doing intelligence, much less philosophy.
Walker
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Walker »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:16 pm
Walker wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:15 pm Fill a big jar with jelly beans.
Have 10,000 average people honestly guess the unknown number.
Average the guesses.
Count the jelly beans.
The average guesstimate will be close to if not identical to the actual number.

Therefore, true intellectuals and not the pretenders know to listen to average.
Hopefully this will correct your erroneous notions of average.

(ain't science wonderful?)
That's not how knowledge works. If the best you can do is collective guess, you're not doing intelligence, much less philosophy.
Physics is simply the best guess, with all knowledge considered.

So, are you saying that the google search engine should slant information searches towards a particular political world view?
Last edited by Walker on Tue May 18, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the prime failure of public opinion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:51 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:41 pm
Advocate wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 2:57 pm

I said "are" and you said "thinks so". These two things are entirely different.
Well, not until you define precisely who gets to say who they (the "better"ones) are." If that person is them, then it's only a "thinks so."

So who decides?
"Who gets to decide?" is a separate question that applies to All ideologies, so i ignore when it's referenced generally against any specific one. It's a distraction.
No, "who gets to decide is YOUR question."

In a democracy, the answer is "everybody." That ends the question. Now we know.

In your elitist system, the question of who gets to be elite becomes primary. If we can't find them, then your system will never work; because we'll have no way of knowing who's in the "better" group, and who is not.

So answer, and quit wriggling.
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