conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

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henry quirk
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conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Who cares what happens in the US? Your population seems to be made up entirely of self-absorbed, insane egomaniacs. You need to check out your water.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

Who cares what happens in the US?

Me.

Your population seems to be made up entirely of self-absorbed, insane egomaniacs.

Yes.

You need to check out your water.

I only drink beer.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:56 pm https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
fully agree - minus the millia part.

and note Progressives are not Liberals - the former is mind control via the Chinese Cultural revolution. I'm NOT a Progressive!
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:39 pm Who cares what happens in the US?

Me.

Me also.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 7:39 pm I only drink beer.
Me also.;-).
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:37 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:56 pm https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
*fully agree - minus the millia part.

and note Progressives are not Liberals - the former is mind control via the Chinese Cultural revolution. I'm NOT a Progressive!
*Why?
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 am
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:37 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:56 pm https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

??????? why do i not like milltias?

becaue they might act without gov - fed/state or local authority - and just act a a mob. and a mob is just collective anarchy and such behavior will not affirm the concepts of the Rule of Law ano my personal liberty.



Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
*fully agree - minus the millia part.

and note Progressives are not Liberals - the former is mind control via the Chinese Cultural revolution. I'm NOT a Progressive!
*Why?
why distrust millitia? becuase i am a rule of Law guy - if millita has legit authority via local or state or fed - and siad gov are valid i'm fine with it. but more aptly when there is corruption in gov from local to federal we have anarchy and the collective form of is a n informal army - millitai - wihihc is mob rule and will not care about m personal rights nor anyone elsses.

mods are bad - even when they form millitia.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 am
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:37 pm

*fully agree - minus the millia part.

and note Progressives are not Liberals - the former is mind control via the Chinese Cultural revolution. I'm NOT a Progressive!
*Why?
why distrust millitia? becuase i am a rule of Law guy - if millita has legit authority via local or state or fed - and siad gov are valid i'm fine with it. but more aptly when there is corruption in gov from local to federal we have anarchy and the collective form of is a n informal army - millitai - wihihc is mob rule and will not care about m personal rights nor anyone elsses.

mods are bad - even when they form millitia.
I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.

That's what self-responsible, honest people do. And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 am

*Why?
why distrust millitia? becuase i am a rule of Law guy - if millita has legit authority via local or state or fed - and siad gov are valid i'm fine with it. but more aptly when there is corruption in gov from local to federal we have anarchy and the collective form of is a n informal army - millitai - wihihc is mob rule and will not care about m personal rights nor anyone elsses.

mods are bad - even when they form millitia.
I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.

That's what self-responsible, honest people do. And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.

I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:24 am

why distrust millitia? becuase i am a rule of Law guy - if millita has legit authority via local or state or fed - and siad gov are valid i'm fine with it. but more aptly when there is corruption in gov from local to federal we have anarchy and the collective form of is a n informal army - millitai - wihihc is mob rule and will not care about m personal rights nor anyone elsses.

mods are bad - even when they form millitia.
I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.

That's what self-responsible, honest people do. And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.

I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

*I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am

I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.

That's what self-responsible, honest people do. And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.

I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

*I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
?????????

I'm just sayin that in revolution you have a loss of gov rule - and so anarchy and regional anarchy -until the next gov can be formed -a nd usually the next gov is no better than the prior one.

America's rev the exception to the general rule.

-------------

really - look to Samolia, king overthrown in 1990 - due to corrucption i assume (I've not educated myself on the gov of Sololia in the 80's - but folks were upset and overthrew it for a reason) - result was 35 yrs of anarchy and tribal millitia until Somaliland and the rest being occpuied by Etheopia. Today? not sure the news media is more concered with tranvestites than stuff like - what is going in Somolia today.

same with Lybia? whats the state of things in Lybia - two? regional govs there? one east side the other wst side? - i've no clue sinc ethe news does not cover it. all i heard was that the thug Qudaffi killed and - "Well thats all no more news to report" - 10 yrs ago!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 am


I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

*I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
?????????

*I'm just sayin that in revolution you have a loss of gov rule - and so anarchy and regional anarchy -until the next gov can be formed -a nd usually the next gov is no better than the prior one.

America's rev the exception to the general rule.

-------------

really - look to Samolia, king overthrown in 1990 - due to corrucption i assume (I've not educated myself on the gov of Sololia in the 80's - but folks were upset and overthrew it for a reason) - result was 35 yrs of anarchy and tribal millitia until Somaliland and the rest being occpuied by Etheopia. Today? not sure the news media is more concered with tranvestites than stuff like - what is going in Somolia today.

same with Lybia? whats the state of things in Lybia - two? regional govs there? one east side the other wst side? - i've no clue sinc ethe news does not cover it. all i heard was that the thug Qudaffi killed and - "Well thats all no more news to report" - 10 yrs ago!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol.
*I agree,,,as I say, revolutionaries typically want to replace the current gov with themselves (remove one cancer and install a new one). I say: hang the tyrants. Full stop.

There's a lil sci-fi micro-fiction about this subject...a very on the mark piece...if I find it, I'll post it.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

What do you replace a cancer with?

Nuthin'.

https://eldraeverse.com/2012/01/07/the- ... he-people/

The Drowning of the People

“No, we’re not a democracy, or so they say. They, of course, ignore that the Senate’s Chamber of the People is randomly selected from all our citizen-shareholders, and also ignore planets like Viëlle, that uses the totality of the population as its planetary Assembly, or Meryn, where ever-changing proxies, rather than one-time votes, determine whose policies hold sway. There’s only around 38 billion people on them, after all. But they don’t have the final word, so they’re not sovereign enough, or not representative democracies, and so they don’t count.”

“But we were – well, the lands that later became the Empire were – almost a democracy once. How long? About seven hours. That’s how long it took us to decide we didn’t like the idea.”

“Tell y’all the story? Well, gather round. Now, once upon a time, a few millennia ago, in the region that is now called the Old Empires but was then the Old Kingdoms, there were the korásan. And the korásan were a warrior aristocracy, and ruled by the sword, and in exchange for their services in keeping off bandits and wild beasts and their fellow korásan who took it into their heads to expand their domains, they felt themselves entitled to certain traditional perquisites of the people with the biggest swords around when other folk have none. Which contrary to the madder stories people allege to be alleged were not blood sacrifice and baby-eating and demanding people’s fairest wives and daughters for their beds, but rather such things as taxation – without asking if it pleased people to pay it, first, more to the point – and demanding labor for their initiatives and men for their wars, and that people should bow before their gods, and putting their eyes and hands into people’s homes and lives and insisting that their ways to live were the right ways to live and all should abide them, or else.”

“The years passed, and the people of the Old Kingdoms grumbled and groaned under the demands of the korásan, and all the while, hid wealth and food and swords in secret against a later day when they would need them no longer. And when that day came as a new year dawned in the coldest part of the cycle, whether by chance or by hidden messengers, the people rose up together, and there was blood and smoke and clash of arms from Icemark to Crescenthold and Iselené to Eävalle as the korásan found out that ruling by the sword isn’t nearly as practical when the ruled also have swords, and a general distaste for the way you’ve been going about it. And as, over that year, the korásan fell, leaders emerged among those who cast them down, and some thoughts turned to how things should be in the future, when it came to protection from bandits and wild beasts and strangers from beyond the Old Kingdoms who might have similar notions.”

“The last korásan to fall were those in Leirin, in the Crescent, for the Crescent is a cold and bitter land of mountains, with cities carved into cliffs and bounded by wild rivers, and filled with natural fortifications that could only be reduced slowly, and with the greatest effort; and so when the last one fell, at Leiri itself, the City of Mists, a great discussion was called there among the leaders of this revolution, to determine how things should now be.”

“And so this was held in the old thronehall at Leiri, and from the midmorn hour – for there were stragglers – those who had come with the leaders sat around in drinking-halls throughout the city, supping hot mead and speculating on the outcome of the discussions. And others, who had led in one place or another but had not been invited to this grand discussion sat and drank with us, but with more brooding than excitement.”

“And at dusk, the bells summoned them to the square before the thronehall, and those leaders came out and explained to the gathered people their grand plan, that now instead of self-named korásan they should compete for the people’s favor, and they should choose from them the best to lead, and they would sit in the places of the korásan and protect them from the bandits and the wild beasts and ambitious foreigners.”

“And the crowd murmured at this, but it didn’t sound too unreasonable.”

“Then they continued, and explained that they would have to have just a few of the perquisites of the old korásan – not all, no, and certainly not the ones that had been found the most burdensome in the past, but that they couldn’t protect – that there was no way people could be protected – without just a little taxation, and some conscription, and a few other things, but nothing like the bad old days. And, of course, if their efforts were too much to bear, the people could replace them, at the appointed time, and let someone else sit in their place.”

“And that was when my great-great-grandfather, who was Muireth Andracanth-ith-Cyranth Múrchárn, Nighthunter – and was thereafter Muireth Andracanth-ith-Cyranth Velkorálakhass, Slayer of the Manyfold Tyrant – stood up from the crowd, and in a great voice declared that he’d spent the last year killing damned tyrants until the rivers ran with blood, and that he was damned a dozen times over if he was going to come back and do it again.”

“Adding to the crowd, while their speaker – whose name is lost to memory – was still framing his reply, that being able to choose his master didn’t make a slave free, that having taken up the sword and overthrown the korásan that they could bloody well do the same to any bandits or beasts or invaders who came along, and finally, by way of a final point, that they clearly weren’t done yet and some last tyrants needed to die, here and now.”

“The crowd rose up, followed him, and they grabbed everyone who’d come up with this grand plan, and flung them all in the river. And that was the end of the one and only eldraeic experiment with representative democracy, seven hours after they first started talking.”

“Later? There was no later. This was the Falthrang, in the middle of deep winter. They probably all froze to death before they had a chance to drown.”

“Well, that, and the Leirfalls are 400 feet high and just downstream.”
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:56 pm https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
Reminds me of Mencken: "There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong."

The belief that some bunch of human beings can write something down on paper and that bunch, or another bunch, signing it changes anything is a superstitious belief in magic. Constitutions, charters, contracts, and declaration are all attempts make societies what one would like them to be by means of political abracadabra.

No piece of paper ever made anyone do anything they were determined to do otherwise.

As long as men hate reality as it is, and devote all their time and energy to trying to make the world, especially society and other men, the way they think it ought to be, or they'd like it to be, human beings will never be happy.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it. You have no argument. Give it up after 'how' many years? :roll:

Humans have a long history of leaving each other alone and living as individualistic islands :lol:

So-called 'libertarians' really are the biggest arsholes around--obsessed with THEIR money and pretty much interested in nothing else. Their 'non system' is completely unworkable but that doesn't bother them, because they think they will have more MONEY when all those pesky lesser people (the ones who don't have much money or are vulnerable in some way or other) are out of the way. They are basically social eugenicists, too stupid to understand how evolved societies work.

Ron Swanson is a 'cartoon' character in a comedy show. When someone can relate to him as an ideal then you know there is something very wrong with that person's mindset.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Tue May 04, 2021 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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