conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

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RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:44 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:56 pm https://constitutioncenter.org/debate/s ... ng-project

I read the libertarian version (paid no mind to the other two): no thanks. Whackadoodle extremist that I am, I think we oughta scrap the current experiment and go big (more accurately, go 'small')...

-----

Proposed Charter for the American Free Zone

I-A man belongs to himself.

II-A man's life, liberty, and property are his.

III-A man's life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

To defend, and offer redress of violations of, life, liberty, and property, the following safeguards are recommended...

I-a local constabulary

II-a local court of last resort

III-a border patrol

IIII-militia

Establishing any or all of these safeguards, or variations of these safeguards, is at the discretion of individual communities, however: as citizens are the final safeguard it is strongly recommended no other safeguard be established without the oversight of militia.


-----

Short, sweet, unambiguous.
Reminds me of Mencken: "There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong."

The belief that some bunch of human beings can write something down on paper and that bunch, or another bunch, signing it changes anything is a superstitious belief in magic. Constitutions, charters, contracts, and declaration are all attempts make societies what one would like them to be by means of political abracadabra.

No piece of paper ever made anyone do anything they were determined to do otherwise.

As long as men hate reality as it is, and devote all their time and energy to trying to make the world, especially society and other men, the way they think it ought to be, or they'd like it to be, human beings will never be happy.
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:12 am Browne's book

A good read, though idealistic.

Look here, from his book, found while I was refreshin' my memory with an on-line copy...

If you’re not free now, it isn’t because you haven’t done enough to change the world. Quite the contrary, it may be that you’ve been doing too much to try to change the world. The effort you’ve expended in that direction could have been used to provide freedom for yourself

True. You gotta take care of your business. Expecting, or lettin', the other guy to do it for you is a sure path to you bein' his bitch.


You don’t have to reconstruct the social order; you don’t have to overpower the villains; you don’t have to re-educate the world; you don’t need a miracle. You can have your freedom back any time you choose to take it.

This here is the idealism, the optimism, I find unwarranted. Reality is, men will organize and work to direct men. It's naive to believe you're immune to agents of state smashin' your door in and shootin' you in the head just cuz you're a free man. The whole damn point of the State -- any State -- is to deprive you of liberty and property. And it doesn't seem the State much cares if you live or die as it's takin' that liberty or property (it will take your life). To some degree -- out of a sense of self-preservation, if nuthin' else -- you oughta push back before it's 3am and you're havin' a fire fight in your livin' room with six SWAT (them in riot gear with auto-shotguns, you in your boxers with your weapon of choice).

So, yeah, if I can throw a stone in the pond with posts here or conversation there, posts and conversations that might get a couple or three folks thinkin' in different ways; if I can occasionally spike a tree or put sugar in a gas tank (literally & figuratively) to flummox local SOBs who believe themselves entitled to direct; if I find some person suited to act as an agent of chaos (like ORANGE MAN) who wants public office; if I can posit and argue for what I call a natural rights minarchy where statists are not welcome or nccessary, then absolutely I will post, converse, spike, sugar, elect, and posit & argue for.

These things and others are my investments toward my, and my kid's, future and all are variations on that Hebrew sayin' if you know someone is comin' to kill you, get up early and go kill them first.

I'm a free man and I aim to stay a free man.
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henry quirk
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

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Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

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henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:32 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
He did. You are just blinded by your own fanaticism. Don't you think creationists have been debunked a million time over? Of course they have. They just can't see it because their brains are fucked.
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henry quirk
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:32 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
He did. You are just blinded by your own fanaticism. Don't you think creationists have been debunked a million time over? Of course they have. They just can't see it because their brains are fucked.
meh

You're just a hysterical woman.

Here, have a 🍎
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 4:24 pm
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am

*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
?????????

*I'm just sayin that in revolution you have a loss of gov rule - and so anarchy and regional anarchy -until the next gov can be formed -a nd usually the next gov is no better than the prior one.

America's rev the exception to the general rule.

-------------

really - look to Samolia, king overthrown in 1990 - due to corrucption i assume (I've not educated myself on the gov of Sololia in the 80's - but folks were upset and overthrew it for a reason) - result was 35 yrs of anarchy and tribal millitia until Somaliland and the rest being occpuied by Etheopia. Today? not sure the news media is more concered with tranvestites than stuff like - what is going in Somolia today.

same with Lybia? whats the state of things in Lybia - two? regional govs there? one east side the other wst side? - i've no clue sinc ethe news does not cover it. all i heard was that the thug Qudaffi killed and - "Well thats all no more news to report" - 10 yrs ago!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol.
*I agree,,,as I say, revolutionaries typically want to replace the current gov with themselves (remove one cancer and install a new one). I say: hang the tyrants. Full stop.

There's a lil sci-fi micro-fiction about this subject...a very on the mark piece...if I find it, I'll post it.
love Sci-fiction (its been dead since the 80's though) - best era wa the 50's in genral - good from 30's through 70's - and oply Orson Scott Card (who came off as a total dick when i met him decades ago - but a fyi) - offered to extend good sci fi from the 70s to the 80's beinga great author.

if you like good sci fi check out mindweb:

i found it 15 yrs ago -but suffered piss poor audio quality via reccorded off radio decades ago - Darkman got in touch with Hanson and they uploaded the oridginal caddie tapes of hanson's 70's era works to the archive (as i said before i know about and had copies of the old and shitty audio quality versions - but suffered for a decade due to the good stories - but now the originals are up there) - i re-copied the new clear versions 2 yrs ago - ten read Hanson died last year ;-/ - from the same site. sad. anyway - clear copies of excellent works now exist of sci works that are about someting! - the human condition/society/ etc.......... - some statement of importance from the masters of scifi - thoe like Heinland, Azimoz, Bradburry, Sheck;ley, Saberhagen - etc - silverburg - the lest fo the greats of 50 yrs ago are twice of the greats to sci today - whmoever they are - no interest to learn of or read their works (no doulbt they are full of indentity politics - and lack true vision nor social statements.).


-------any done with rant and good luck in decifering the above - i shall take the time to rread your short story - probably ny weeks end - a little trunk- oso lazy - to do so now.

https://archive.org/details/MindWebs_201410

90- percent are good - esp "I kill myself" (all about "a noble self sacrifice" when you are a phony to yourself and instead a virtue signaler. and They - me being a Solipsist i have to like (and Heinland is a good-great author so is this short story), Desertion - main character loving Towser as i loved my Fidget - i just had to love the short story by simak - one of the minor gods of sci fi in the 50's.

.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:19 am

*Why?
why distrust millitia? becuase i am a rule of Law guy - if millita has legit authority via local or state or fed - and siad gov are valid i'm fine with it. but more aptly when there is corruption in gov from local to federal we have anarchy and the collective form of is a n informal army - millitai - wihihc is mob rule and will not care about m personal rights nor anyone elsses.

mods are bad - even when they form millitia.
thank you for the below post - and i agree. so we are both optomists(pp) - fk my dyslexia. oh well it is what it is.

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.
I agree in theory - but we must agree to dissagree in practice viewing history of revolts.

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am That's what self-responsible, honest people do.

absolutely!


henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.
welcome to the club of idealists - and i agree i too view man as more good than bad - just have les faithin millitia then you do.

thats fine, i just lack faith in millita - otherwise from your posts i think you and i are in agreement in the bigger picture of the nature of man.

thanks for reply - welcome future discourse.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:39 am

I hear ya. I believe, however, the militia I envision (just free folks) can self-regulate and weed out bad eggs.

That's what self-responsible, honest people do. And -- call me idealist or optimist if you like -- I think most people, most of the time are, or can be, self-responsible and honest.

I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

*I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
hhhhhhhhhm - i think is is more like Orwell's Animal Farm - the original revolters ahd good intentions - then when it looked like they would win, the othrs joined in.

and so we have the conversion of "all animals are equal" to "all aniamls are equal but some are more equal than others" by the end of the conflict.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:53 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it. You have no argument. Give it up after 'how' many years? :roll:

Humans have a long history of leaving each other alone and living as individualistic islands :lol:

So-called 'libertarians' really are the biggest arsholes around--obsessed with THEIR money and pretty much interested in nothing else. Their 'non system' is completely unworkable but that doesn't bother them, because they think they will have more MONEY when all those pesky lesser people (the ones who don't have much money or are vulnerable in some way or other) are out of the way. They are basically social eugenicists, too stupid to understand how evolved societies work.

Ron Swanson is a 'cartoon' character in a comedy show. When someone can relate to him as an ideal then you know there is something very wrong with that person's mindset.

so I guess that make me an asshole,.since I'm a Liberal Libertarian.

oh well.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:32 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
ya what did i debunk?

just an asshole Libertarian asking. - bot Veg did claim i said something about something, so ??? still clueless.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:32 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
He did.
I did? and then i read you say all Libertarian are assholes - not knowing i am a Libertarian - or knowing i am and also using my posts to support your claim i'm an asshole, but right about something about something..

ok thanks.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:57 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:32 pm Gaffo debunked your crap in nearly as few words as you use to NOT explain it.

No he didn't...and neither have you.
He did.
I did? and then i read you say all Libertarian are assholes - not knowing i am a Libertarian - or knowing i am and also using my posts to support your claim i'm an asshole, but right about something about something..

ok thanks.
Don't pay Veg no mind...she's just a girl with uppity hormones. (she might be on the menopause)
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henry quirk
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by henry quirk »

gaffo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:47 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:54 am
gaffo wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:47 am


I see.Well like you have a higher view of man than Emmanual - who has adopted the Saul view of men as worms/oringal sin/etc.

I just don't have a mch faiith in the concept of millitias as you do.

*I see history via reolutions and - outisde of the america one in 76 - narly all of them ended up worse of via thir millitias during hte conflict than the gov they had prior.

French rev come to mind here.

--- ideally a bloodles revolution is the best - like the one India had with Britain in 1948 - but sadly that form is rare. - the brits were smart enouhg not to insist upon keeping india (unlike the franch wrt to Algeria -or Veitnam for that matter).
*Seems to me, all the revolutions to overthrow rulers fail cuz the intent was never just throw out the bad eggs. Always, the revolutionaries wanted to replace the bad eggs (with equally bad eggs).

When you get rid of cancer, what do you replace it with? A different cancer? Of course not.
hhhhhhhhhm - i think is is more like Orwell's Animal Farm - the original revolters ahd good intentions - then when it looked like they would win, the othrs joined in.

and so we have the conversion of "all animals are equal" to "all aniamls are equal but some are more equal than others" by the end of the conflict.
Well, that's always a danger cuz there's always gonna be someone who thinks he's justified tellin' the other what to do. He's has some plan (like the schmucks in the microfiction upthread) to fill the gaps left by the former tyrant. Any society of men, even of free men, has to guard constantly against such bullshit.

It may be any arrangement, even the natural rights minarchy, is doomed to die becuz them parasites are a renewing threat...like cockroaches, you kill one tyrant and there are ten others hidden in the walls waitin' to take its place.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

You both deserve each other :roll:
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:08 am You both deserve each other :roll:
lol - we'll we will be stuck with each other for enternity -;-/ since emannual can says athisets go to hell forever.
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Re: conservative, progressive, libertarian constitutions

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 am
gaffo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:57 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:52 pm

He did.
I did? and then i read you say all Libertarian are assholes - not knowing i am a Libertarian - or knowing i am and also using my posts to support your claim i'm an asshole, but right about something about something..

ok thanks.
Don't pay Veg no mind...she's just a girl with uppity hormones. (she might be on the menopause)
i think shes past that stage if you know what i mean. all dried up.I stopped payig her mind witin the first 4 months i showed up here - 3 yrs ago.
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