Basic Human Rights

How should society be organised, if at all?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:09 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 9:03 pm
Are you thinking there's somewhere that that has ever been done, RC? :shock:

I can't think of any place where capitalism has been demanded, or organized into existence, or engineered...but go ahead, if you know where that's happened.
Of course not. There are many individuals, however, especially those libertarians who worship at the alter of the Austrian school of economics (or any "free-market types,") who believe such a system is possible, or at least ought to be worked for. A "capitalist system," is actually an oxymoron. Any system means some kind of political control, and political control is always in conflict with true free markets.
Seems to me Austrian theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.
Of course, but that doesn't stop ideologues from using it as an argument for their preferred political or social systems.
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henry quirk
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by henry quirk »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:34 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:09 am
Of course not. There are many individuals, however, especially those libertarians who worship at the alter of the Austrian school of economics (or any "free-market types,") who believe such a system is possible, or at least ought to be worked for. A "capitalist system," is actually an oxymoron. Any system means some kind of political control, and political control is always in conflict with true free markets.
Seems to me Austrian theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.
Of course, but that doesn't stop ideologues from using it as an argument for their preferred political or social systems.
Got it... 👍
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:59 am educate yourself on libertarians.
Oh, I agree. It's always a good idea to have some idea of what you are talking about. Toward that end, you might just be interested in two pages on the Free Individual site I publish:

"Freedom," Site Reviews has links to over 800 freedom and individualism related sites, including all the following mostly libertarian sites which I link to and regularly review:

Acton Institute
Advocates for Self-Government
Agorist Nexus
AntiWar.com
The Bastiat Institute
Everything Voluntary
Freedomain Radio—Stefan Molyneux
Free Keene
Free State Project
Stephen Hicks, Ph.D.
Kent's "Hooligan Libertarian" Blog—Kent McManigal
Stephan Kinsella
Knappster (Thomas Knapp)
KoPubCo—Victor Koman
Libertarian Crusaders [Christian]
The Libertarian Enterprise—L. Neil Smith
Libertarian Institute
The Property and Freedom Society—Stephan Kinsella
The Lunatic Farmer—Joel Salatin [Christian libertarian]
Wendy McElroy
The Price of Liberty [Aggregator]
Liberty, as it is—Francois-Rene Rideau
Robert Tracinski
Strike The Root
The Ultimate Answer to Kings

If you are really interested in learning about libertarianism, use my Freedom Library page listing every major writer in history on freedom and liberty with links to online versions of their works where available.

When you get done with that, come back and we'll discuss my deficiency in knowledge about libertarianism.

The main problem with libertarianism, as well as all other social/political ideologies, is the belief that freedom is some kind of social condition and the only way to it is to make society what one would like it to be. They are all utopian.

Only one libertarian in history got it (though to prove his point he was once the Libertarian presidential candidate), Harry Browne. He wrote the book, How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World. Freedom pertains only to individuals, not societies, and like everything else of value in life, every individual must create their own freedom.
gaffo
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:53 am
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 8:59 pm Under Socialism, you must be compelled to join the collective. And if you do not, then you must be "re-educated" or eliminated, because you impair the Socialist ambitions of other people. The Socialist state cannot allow any opters-out.
ok, i may grant you this.
Well, then, it's a serious problem. If one person adopts an ideology that does not allow for the autonomy of any others, he has only two choices: give up his insane collectivist, utopian dream, or use force to make all the other people obey.

It's the second option that the Socialists always take.
bullshit - thuggery has no idealogy - other than one they sue to secuse power - from the right to the left.

wake up bubba. replresson is from dictators - not from left ones - but from all of them!
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

Only one libertarian in history got it (though to prove his point he was once the Libertarian presidential candidate), Harry Browne. He wrote the book, How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World. Freedom pertains only to individuals, not societies, and like everything else of value in life, every individual must create their own freedom.
[/quote]

exactly! did knnow Browne wrote a book - thanks for the education.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:59 pm thuggery has no idealogy
In one sense, no: anybody could choose to be a thug. But there's no necessary link between most ideologies and thuggery.

Socialism actually requires thuggery. It cannot permit any opting out, so it has to use force. It has no option.
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Sun May 02, 2021 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:09 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:59 pm thuggery has no idealogy
In one sense, no: anybody could choose to be a thug. But there's no necessary link between most ideologies and thuggery.

Socialism actually requires/i] thuggery. It cannot permit any opting out, so it has to use force. It has no option.


more bullshit from you - Norway, France, Sweden, Finland had dictators for life as in the rightwing natios of Chile and Spain?

so no elections for premiers in France/Sweden/Norway/Finland/etc..........

you are ful lof it bubba/
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

I've been wanting to discuss the powers of the GG per the Rule of LAw - but know i undertand you do not value the Rule of Law - so we can not discus

I think you are more caught in feelings instead of legalism.the GG powers adly.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:26 pm I've been wanting to discuss the powers of the GG per the Rule of LAw - but know i undertand you do not value the Rule of Law - so we can not discus the GG powers sadly.

I think you are more caught in feelings instead of legalism.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:22 pm Norway, France, Sweden, Finland
None of them is controlled by Socialism. All are running democratic, capitalist economies. They have Socialist parties, maybe, and social programs: but the programs and the whole economy is funded by capitalism. Norway, for example, is entirely economically dependent on oil reserves on its shores, and couldn't maintain its lifestyle without that. So it's no Socialist paradise, for sure. Denmark, another oft-cited "Socialist" place, allegedly, is thoroughly capitalist in its business practices, with less regulation in many areas than even the US.

Socialism can't pay any bills. Applied to the economy, it's a disaster. Applied to politics, it's thuggery.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:31 pm I've been wanting to discuss the powers of the GG
A waste of my time and yours. The GG is a figurehead, a rubber stamp, a show pony.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:44 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:22 pm Norway, France, Sweden, Finland
None of them is controlled by Socialism. All are running democratic, capitalist economies. They have Socialist parties, maybe, and social programs: but the programs and the whole economy is funded by capitalism. Norway, for example, is entirely economically dependent on oil reserves on its shores, and couldn't maintain its lifestyle without that. So it's no Socialist paradise, for sure. Denmark, another oft-cited "Socialist" place, allegedly, is thoroughly capitalist in its business practices, with less regulation in many areas than even the US.

Socialism can't pay any bills. Applied to the economy, it's a disaster. Applied to politics, it's thuggery.
I'm not interested in senantics. if you wish to ay Norway/etc are Capitalists - fine by me - i view them as more socialist - but fine.

there way is the right way IMO - so the maore my nation has Norwegian polies the better in my book for America.

Bidon declaring a rise in tax for the rich is a start - since tricke down don't trickle.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:47 pm i view them as more socialist
Well, that's wrong, clearly.
tricke down don't trickle.
What is this "trickle down" nonsense? There's no such theory.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by henry quirk »

Browne's book

A good read, though idealistic.

Look here, from his book, found while I was refreshin' my memory with an on-line copy...

If you’re not free now, it isn’t because you haven’t done enough to change the world. Quite the contrary, it may be that you’ve been doing too much to try to change the world. The effort you’ve expended in that direction could have been used to provide freedom for yourself

True. You gotta take care of your business. Expecting, or lettin', the other guy to do it for you is a sure path to you bein' his bitch.


You don’t have to reconstruct the social order; you don’t have to overpower the villains; you don’t have to re-educate the world; you don’t need a miracle. You can have your freedom back any time you choose to take it.

This here is the idealism, the optimism, I find unwarranted. Reality is, men will organize and work to direct men. It's naive to believe you're immune to agents of state smashin' your door in and shootin' you in the head just cuz you're a free man. The whole damn point of the State -- any State -- is to deprive you of liberty and property. And it doesn't seem the State much cares if you live or die as it's takin' that liberty or property (it will take your life). To some degree -- out of a sense of self-preservation, if nuthin' else -- you oughta push back before it's 3am and you're havin' a fire fight in your livin' room with six SWAT (them in riot gear with auto-shotguns, you in your boxers with your weapon of choice).

So, yeah, if I can throw a stone in the pond with posts here or conversation there, posts and conversations that might get a couple or three folks thinkin' in different ways; if I can occasionally spike a tree or put sugar in a gas tank (literally & figuratively) to flummox local SOBs who believe themselves entitled to direct; if I find some person suited to act as an agent of chaos (like ORANGE MAN) who wants public office; if I can posit and argue for what I call a natural rights minarchy where statists are not welcome or nccessary, then absolutely I will post, converse, spike, sugar, elect, and posit & argue for.

These things and others are my investments toward my, and my kid's, future and all are variations on that Hebrew sayin' if you know someone is comin' to kill you, get up early and go kill them first.

I'm a free man and I aim to stay a free man.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 pm
gaffo wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:47 pm i view them as more socialist
Well, that's wrong, clearly.
tricke down don't trickle.
What is this "trickle down" nonsense? There's no such theory.
Reagonomics - what we have had for now 45 yrs - and discredited in my eye as not working.

so tax the rich more! - back to where it was in the 1970's.
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