Basic Human Rights

[Immanuel Can]

RIGHT!!!

Okay, but if that's right, then the next question is going to be, "Well, then where do rights come from?" Because we're ruling out human institutions as a basis of rights...so if we have them, they have to come some other way.

What do you think that way is?

DNA via evolution of man as a social animal. as i said in my prior posts above Sir.

"Evolution" is an utterly impersonal process, and has no opinions about "rights." It's premised on "survival of the fittest," not "rights." So that answer just doesn't float the boat, I'm afraid.

[commonsense]

Okay. But on what would you base that right?

For there was surely a time in human civilization when there was no reasonable degree of healthcare for anybody...

If this was even remotely true, then how did human beings exist for millions of years, hitherto the day and age when this is being read?

don't play dumb Emmanual was correct.

man existed due to lviing to 30 at best and breeding more than dying from 2 million yrs ago to about 500 yrs ago.

If you add the criteria that there must be a degree of healthcare to consider, as opposed to the unqualified and unquantified health care that I was discussing, then of course there’s more and better healthcare than ever before, measured by longevity, birth rate or any other objective standard.

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

[Immanuel Can]

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

[henry quirk]

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

You can ask for an assist in removin' that splinter: ain't nuthin' wrong in askin'.

What you ought not do is lay claim to another's time or energy or resources or fingers (no matter how nimble) to get that splinter out: doin' any of that is just theft (which is wrong).

Nor should you gather up in a mob (the majority) to force the minority to abide your demands for splinter-removal: doin' that is slavery (which is wrong).

[commonsense]

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor and I am committed to seeing that anyone with a legitimate claim to healthcare, I.e. anyone who is human, is certain to have his healthcare right fulfilled.

You need not thank me, because I am a dedicated healthcare professional. You need not pay me, for I am already gainfully employed.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people for whom their right is not fulfilled. Their right to access medical care is not being denied as much as the availability of healthcare resources is lacking.

Long before our encounter in the park, there were medicine men who held my role. There has always been someone in my role, someone who gives aid and assistance to others.

[Immanuel Can]

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor...

But that's just luck, as you say. Most people are not. So it doesn't answer the question.

The obvious fact remains that most people should not be mucking about with my splinter, even if I want them to...and I think you'd agree, definitely not with my failing kidney, my heart valve, or my hip replacement. Those are strictly professional jobs.

So you're suggesting that, since I still have a "right" to medical care, they "owe it" to me to pay for my splinter removal, my hip replacement, or perhaps my sex change?

Explain how that happens: how did they come to owe me their money in that way?

[henry quirk]

There may be those who would say that a foreign body removal, say a splinter from a toe, just isn’t an example of healthcare unless an MRI is involved, but, again, I was only concerned with the existence of any degree of healthcare.

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor and I am committed to seeing that anyone with a legitimate claim to healthcare, I.e. anyone who is human, is certain to have his healthcare right fulfilled.

You need not thank me, because I am a dedicated healthcare professional. You need not pay me, for I am already gainfully employed.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people for whom their right is not fulfilled. Their right to access medical care is not being denied as much as the availability of healthcare resources is lacking.

Long before our encounter in the park, there were medicine men who held my role. There has always been someone in my role, someone who gives aid and assistance to others.

Fantastic! You, of your own choosin', extend aid. And you do it free of charge!

Great!

I prefer, however, not to use you. I don't trust altruistic folks. Me, I'll keep payin' my doc for services rendered.

[commonsense]

It's not really a matter of "degree" though, CS.

Let's suppose you're walking by, and I'm sitting on a park bench, trying to get a splinter out of my toe...on what basis can I foist a claim on you that you have to remove it yourself, or even pay somebody else to do it? What gives me the right to make such a claim on you? Why is my toe your problem?

Now, I might well agree that if you stop and help me, you're a good chap. And if you pay for somebody else to do it, I might call you generous. But if it was my "right" all along, I won't need to say thank you, because you were obligated morally to do it for me anyway. It was my "right," and if you DIDN'T help me, you were in violation of my rights.

Does that sound right to you? If it does, you'd best explain how.

I like your scenario.

You’re in luck! I’m a doctor...

But that's just luck, as you say. Most people are not. So it doesn't answer the question.

The obvious fact remains that most people should not be mucking about with my splinter, even if I want them to...and I think you'd agree, definitely not with my failing kidney, my heart valve, or my hip replacement. Those are strictly professional jobs.

So you're suggesting that, since I still have a "right" to medical care, they "owe it" to me to pay for my splinter removal, my hip replacement, or perhaps my sex change?

Explain how that happens: how did they come to owe me their money in that way?

“They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.

If your care were not funded by an agency of the government to which you pay taxes, and also were not funded by a health insurance policy that you purchased, then the cost of your care would be absorbed by the facility that treated you.

[Immanuel Can]

“They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

[henry quirk]

“They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

*From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

*Mebbe it's supposed to be cultural. In the same way Common accepted the role of medicine man, your neighbor should accept his havin' to pay into the community pot. Not so much that you have the right to make him pay as he has the obligation to pay.

It's crap..just re-castin' your right as his duty...the result is the same: your neighbor is forced to do that which he may not willingly choose to do...he is used as resource, as property.

[commonsense]

“They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

None of your neighbors has to pay. All they have to do is refrain from interfering with your surgery. All they have to do is not to interfere with your right to care.

[Immanuel Can]

“They” are the doctors and medicine men, not just anyone at all. There’s always going to be someone in that role. I came to owe you my services by way of accepting my role.

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

None of your neighbors has to pay.

So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.

[Gary Childress]

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

None of your neighbors has to pay.

So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.

That's why people get health insurance, to pay for unforeseen disasters, knowing that they may be paying for something they'll never need. Medicare for all would be guaranteed health insurance. Everyone pays into it with their share of taxes and everyone is eligible to use it. And doctors get paid for their services.

[commonsense]

So if you are prepared to bear the burden of providing my, and everyone else's medical care, that's just fine. I'm sure nobody minds. If you think it's a sacred mission of all doctors to heal all patients at their own expense, fine-o.

But that's not the question. The question is why my neighbour, the plumber, or my other neighbour, the postman, or my other neighbour, the farmer, owes me money to pay for my splinter, my hip or my sex change.

From where do I get the "right" to make him pay?

None of your neighbors has to pay.

So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.

You should re-read a few posts up from here where you’ll find what I wrote about who pays if you cannot.

[Immanuel Can]

None of your neighbors has to pay.

So you're going to pick up the entire cost of everybody's medical procedure? You're fine with doing that? So nobody ends up paying, except you?

You must be very, very rich if you can do that for everyone. I don't think Bill Gates has that kind of cash. I've got to call "bluff" on that one.

Everyone pays into it with their share of taxes and everyone is eligible to use it. And doctors get paid for their services.

Well, we know how Medicare works, of course, Gary; the question is not that, though. The question is, "Can Medicare be a basic human right?"

The answer's obviously "No." Medicare does not exist naturally, is not available everywhere, was at one time not even invented, was not promised or endowed by God, is not evidently tied to any property of human beings, and requires the taking of some people's money to serve the interests of another group. None of that is the sort of thing that can be called a "right" at all. It's merely a contingent human arrangement -- nowhere guaranteed by the order of the universe.