Basic Human Rights

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:51 pm Can either of you suggest how an honest person acquires property?
There are lots of ways. You can earn wealth with the sweat of your brow. You can create wealth where there was none before. You can perform a useful service, and gain wealth that way. You can educate yourself, and provide knowledge to others in order to get wealth. You can dig a ditch. You can fish in a river. You can make something, sell something, or add value to somebody else's life, and they will provide you with property in return. You can provide security, warmth, food or water. You can build, you can develop, you can discover, and you can multiply wealth through investment or borrowing...

You can even inherit property, so long as it truly is the property of your benefactor...Or like every single person in the West, you can be born into more wealth than most of the rest of the world currently possesses.
Gary Childress
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:08 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:38 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:02 pm Do you disagree with the basic human right to not be abused?

If I believe individual persons belong to themselves it follows I believe they ought not be abused.
Considering all the abuse Age slings out to people whom he quotes out of context, it's quite surprising that he believes in a right "not to be abused." :roll:
No doubt he doesn't see it as abusive.

To be honest, I don't see it that way either...just annoyin'.
I don't know. Telling perfectly law-abiding people that they are the cause of all the world's problems isn't exactly just "annoyin" to me. It's akin to throwing verbal rocks.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am I can't even get folks here to agree about what seems obvious and basic...
Perhaps that is because, there is no such thing as, "rights."

No one is born with a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 pm I don’t know that we can agree, but I would consider it a basic human right to have access to healthcare.
Provided by whom?

If you have a, "right," to healthcare, it means you have a right to force someone to, "doctor," you, and someone else to, "provide medicine for you," and ....

So what happens to the rights of those who are supposed to provide what you have a right to? What makes you certain there will always be doctors and pharmacists that can be forced to provide you those, "rights?"

There is no such thing as rights!
Gary Childress
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:27 am I can't even get folks here to agree about what seems obvious and basic...
Perhaps that is because, there is no such thing as, "rights."

No one is born with a claim to anything they have not earned or produced by their own effort.
It sounds like you believe in a right to own property, then. Wouldn't that be a right?
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:35 am "Rights" are not "wishes." They are properties one inherently possesses, and which cannot be legitimately taken away ...
What nonsense. If one already has rights, "inherently possessed," why would laws be required to ensure we have. We have and inherently posses eyes, and ears, and life and no law is required to make sure we get them.

No one has a, "right," to anything just because they were born. Produce it, trade for it, or earn it--it's yours. Anything else you get you have stolen.

There is no such thing as rights!
Gary Childress
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:06 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:35 am "Rights" are not "wishes." They are properties one inherently possesses, and which cannot be legitimately taken away ...
What nonsense. If one already has rights, "inherently possessed," why would laws be required to ensure we have. We have and inherently posses eyes, and ears, and life and no law is required to make sure we get them.

No one has a, "right," to anything just because they were born. Produce it, trade for it, or earn it--it's yours. Anything else you get you have stolen.

There is no such thing as rights!
Are you advocating that there should be no such thing as rights? Or are you simply pointing out that those who steal from others ignore rights? If it's the latter then I agree. Some don't seem to respect the rights of others and it can definitely be a problem.
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by Gary Childress »

I guess another thread to my OP:

Is there such a thing as "god-given" or "natural" rights? Or are rights things that a society agrees upon based on what it believes it can fulfill for each other?
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henry quirk
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:50 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:08 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:38 pm

Considering all the abuse Age slings out to people whom he quotes out of context, it's quite surprising that he believes in a right "not to be abused." :roll:
No doubt he doesn't see it as abusive.

To be honest, I don't see it that way either...just annoyin'.
I don't know. Telling perfectly law-abiding people that they are the cause of all the world's problems isn't exactly just "annoyin" to me. It's akin to throwing verbal rocks.
Well, mebbe if age weren't operatin' with a deficit we could say he's bein' malicious, but he does have a deficit, so...
Gary Childress
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:50 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:08 pm

No doubt he doesn't see it as abusive.

To be honest, I don't see it that way either...just annoyin'.
I don't know. Telling perfectly law-abiding people that they are the cause of all the world's problems isn't exactly just "annoyin" to me. It's akin to throwing verbal rocks.
Well, mebbe if age weren't operatin' with a deficit we could say he's bein' malicious, but he does have a deficit, so...
Well, maybe you are right. Perhaps I should be more understanding toward him.
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henry quirk
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:32 pm I guess another thread to my OP:

Is there such a thing as "god-given" or "natural" rights? Or are rights things that a society agrees upon based on what it believes it can fulfill for each other?
I say man's ownness (that he belongs to himself; that his life, liberty, and property are his) comes from god.

And I think, more often than not, society hobbles ownness by assertin' (unjust) claims on a man's life, liberty, and property.
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henry quirk
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:51 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:50 pm

I don't know. Telling perfectly law-abiding people that they are the cause of all the world's problems isn't exactly just "annoyin" to me. It's akin to throwing verbal rocks.
Well, mebbe if age weren't operatin' with a deficit we could say he's bein' malicious, but he does have a deficit, so...
Well, maybe you are right. Perhaps I should be more understanding toward him.
Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

Give what is given (shit for shit). His crippled status mebbe obligates you to make not take him seriously, but I can't see why you have to cut him any slack.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:00 pm It sounds like you believe in a right to own property, then. Wouldn't that be a right?
"Ownership," and, "property," are social/economic concepts that have little meaning outside the scope of some political system (government). What one produces is theirs, not by some kind of, "right," but because it is an extension of their own life and their means to it.

What most people mean by, "ownership," and, "property rights," is the idea that one's wealth will not be threatened by anyone else, but there is no such guarantee. The protection of one's earned or created wealth is the responsibility, like all other values, of the individual.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Basic Human Rights

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:29 pm Are you advocating that there should be no such thing as rights?
Yes! There is no such thing as, "rights." It's a made-up concept which no one questions because it's what they've always been taught. Five minutes thought will convince any honest person that the idea of rights has no foundation whatsoever. Why should anyone believe something belongs to them just because they exist--even one's life must be constantly maintained by their own effort. You don't just have it.
commonsense
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Re: Basic Human Rights

Post by commonsense »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:59 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:09 pm I don’t know that we can agree, but I would consider it a basic human right to have access to healthcare.
Provided by whom?

If you have a, "right," to healthcare, it means you have a right to force someone to, "doctor," you, and someone else to, "provide medicine for you," and ....

So what happens to the rights of those who are supposed to provide what you have a right to? What makes you certain there will always be doctors and pharmacists that can be forced to provide you those, "rights?"

There is no such thing as rights!
Provided by taxes and private funds.

When you become a pharmacist or a physician, you willingly give of your time and effort, and your skills and knowledge. No one is forced to make such a commitment.
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