this is not the straw man you're looking for

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by henry quirk »

Yanks don't understand anything. It's like trying to argue with those morons who believe the universe is six thousand years old. You get sick of bashing your head on a rock after a while. And IC only says what he thinks you want to hear.

I hear ya.

Anyway, you asked for a definition of socialism: I gave you some.

Now, I'm waitin' on Advocate to pony up his.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:14 pm
But empirically, no version that has ever been tried so far in the real world, when allowed to run the economy and organize the political structure, has ever resulted in anything other than economic collapse, tyranny and murder, sot they've got that in common, too.
So presumably you are including your own country in that generalisation...
My country isn't Socialist.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:31 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:14 pm
But empirically, no version that has ever been tried so far in the real world, when allowed to run the economy and organize the political structure, has ever resulted in anything other than economic collapse, tyranny and murder, sot they've got that in common, too.
So presumably you are including your own country in that generalisation...
My country isn't Socialist.
So where do you live then? North Korea? Afghanistan?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:09 pm So where do you live then? North Korea? Afghanistan?
North Korea is Socialist.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:22 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:09 pm So where do you live then? North Korea? Afghanistan?
North Korea is Socialist.
It's a totalitarian dictatorship. I do realise that you have caught the idiocrity bug that originated in the US, whereby everything is either 'commie' or 'other', but the world is actually a whole lot more complex than that.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:22 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:09 pm So where do you live then? North Korea? Afghanistan?
North Korea is Socialist.
It's a totalitarian dictatorship.
A Socialist State, turned Socialist dictatorship...like Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Albania, Romania...
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:29 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:22 pm
North Korea is Socialist.
It's a totalitarian dictatorship.
A Socialist State, turned Socialist dictatorship...like Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Albania, Romania...
And you can't see any difference between countries like those, and countries like Norway, Canada, New Zealand etc? Sad.
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=507038 time=1618181922 user_id=9431]
Venezuela, Cuba
[/quote]

This shit has got to stop. Both Venezuela and Cuba are socialist success stories. They were as good as they could be in the face of massive US interference and frankly are still doing better than America would have done with them if they'd been colonized.

Venezuela only turned sour after both massive interference and internal political struggles after Chavez died.

Castro has done more with less for his people relative to the US.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 pm Venezuela, Cuba
This shit has got to stop. Both Venezuela and Cuba are socialist success stories. They were as good as they could be in the face of massive US interference and frankly are still doing better than America would have done with them if they'd been colonized.

Venezuela only turned sour after both massive interference and internal political struggles after Chavez died.

Castro has done more with less for his people relative to the US.
Idiots like Henry and IC don't take general standard of living and population well-being into account, in fact they love the idea of homelessness and starvation. To them, it means the 'inferior ones' get culled, leaving more resources for those who are fortunate enough to be in good health and financial security. Of course, they are too stupid to realise that capitalism can't work without socialism alongside it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:01 am ...countries like Norway, Canada, New Zealand etc?
I can see a huge difference. Russia, China, Venezuela, etc. are Socialist. Canada, Norway, New Zealand, etc. are capitalist.

Norway runs on its abundant oil supplies, sold on the free market, or it would not be able to sustain its social programs for a single year. Canada has a poor-functioning system of socialized medicine and (partly) basic education, but is thoroughly capitalistic in all its economic and political affairs. I'll let somebody else speak about New Zealand, but I suspect the same is true there.

Yep, there's a difference, alright.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:50 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:01 am ...countries like Norway, Canada, New Zealand etc?
I can see a huge difference. Russia, China, Venezuela, etc. are Socialist. Canada, Norway, New Zealand, etc. are capitalist.

Norway runs on its abundant oil supplies, sold on the free market, or it would not be able to sustain its social programs for a single year. Canada has a poor-functioning system of socialized medicine and (partly) basic education, but is thoroughly capitalistic in all its economic and political affairs. I'll let somebody else speak about New Zealand, but I suspect the same is true there.

Yep, there's a difference, alright.
That's funny, because people like Henry would call all of them 'commie' countries :lol:
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Immanuel Can
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:53 am That's funny, because people like Henry would call all of them 'commie' countries :lol:
He might. But I think only in (justifiably) pejorative reference to their concessions to socialized medicine or education. And in fairness to Henry, he's right that both have been highly problematic. The former now seems fiscally doomed, and the latter has turned into a kind of toxic general indoctrination, at least in places like Canada.
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henry quirk
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:28 am
Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:58 pm Venezuela, Cuba
This shit has got to stop. Both Venezuela and Cuba are socialist success stories. They were as good as they could be in the face of massive US interference and frankly are still doing better than America would have done with them if they'd been colonized.

Venezuela only turned sour after both massive interference and internal political struggles after Chavez died.

Castro has done more with less for his people relative to the US.
Idiots like Henry and IC don't take general standard of living and population well-being into account, in fact they love the idea of homelessness and starvation. To them, it means the 'inferior ones' get culled, leaving more resources for those who are fortunate enough to be in good health and financial security. Of course, they are too stupid to realise that capitalism can't work without socialism alongside it.
get bent, sow
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henry quirk
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:50 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:01 am ...countries like Norway, Canada, New Zealand etc?
I can see a huge difference. Russia, China, Venezuela, etc. are Socialist. Canada, Norway, New Zealand, etc. are capitalist.

Norway runs on its abundant oil supplies, sold on the free market, or it would not be able to sustain its social programs for a single year. Canada has a poor-functioning system of socialized medicine and (partly) basic education, but is thoroughly capitalistic in all its economic and political affairs. I'll let somebody else speak about New Zealand, but I suspect the same is true there.

Yep, there's a difference, alright.
That's funny, because people like Henry would call all of them 'commie' countries :lol:
no, sow, I wouldn't
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henry quirk
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Re: this is not the straw man you're looking for

Post by henry quirk »

capitalism can't work without socialism alongside it.

This...

Market socialism: the production process is under the control of ordinary workers. The workers decide how resources should be distributed. The workers sell off what is in excess or give it out to members of the society, who then distribute resources based on a free market system.

...right?

If not, then what?

Might wanna start with your definitions for socialism and capitalism. Then you can explain how the two are supposed to work together, to support one another.

Go ahead: educate us.

You too, Advocate: still waitin' on your, in context, definition of socialism, or Socialism.
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