the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:09 pm ...repeatedly, you insist that I go looking for your answer...
You asked me where. I told you where.

I don't "insist" you do anything.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:12 pm Can you say when and why you chose to be wicked?
Heh. :D Well, I'm a sinner by nature, like anybody else; but do you honestly expect me to talk to you about such things? Why would I wish to parade before you whatever I have done, given that any good person should be ashamed of the same? So I have my own regrets and occasions of repentance, of course. Hence my need for salvation.

But let's go another way: take a look at your own moral state, instead; and don't tell me, or spell it out here. It doesn't matter what I know; it matters what you know. So just take inventory for yourself.

Have you ever lied? Have you ever been malicious? Have you ever betrayed anyone? Have you stolen, or even "over-borrowed" anything, anytime? Have you colluded with those who have? Have you covered up things you know you wouldn't want other people to know you did? Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever felt lust, or greed, or rage, or done anything petty or mean?

In short, where do you stand? Do you agree with God, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) or do you "make God out to be a liar" (1 John 1:10) about that?
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:55 pm ...
I've asked you several times to answer my questions right now... and that's what I'm again asking you to do.

You said: "You think that's who God is? You think that's how He operates? Well, now I can say for certain you don't know God."

So why not explain your view that is in contrast?

Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:37 pm Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?
Well, that's a big question, isn't it? By comparison, to ask, "What do you think 'cosmos' means, and what do you think is in it?" would be a very simple question, which could be answered in a comparatively shorter period of time.

Where do you want to start?
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:41 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:37 pm Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?
Well, that's a big question, isn't it? By comparison, to ask, "What do you think 'cosmos' means, and what do you think is in it?" would be a very simple question, which could be answered in a comparatively shorter period of time.

Where do you want to start?
With you. You're the one who told someone else that they don't know.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:41 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:37 pm Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?
Well, that's a big question, isn't it? By comparison, to ask, "What do you think 'cosmos' means, and what do you think is in it?" would be a very simple question, which could be answered in a comparatively shorter period of time.

Where do you want to start?
With you. You're the one who told someone else that they don't know.
"With me"? :shock: Sorry, that makes no sense; I'm not God. What's your question for me?
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:32 pmHeh. :D Well, I'm a sinner by nature, like anybody else; but do you honestly expect me to talk to you about such things?
To be honest, what you consider a sin is so dreary, I have no interest hearing it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:32 pmHave you ever lied? Have you ever been malicious? Have you ever betrayed anyone? Have you stolen, or even "over-borrowed" anything, anytime? Have you colluded with those who have? Have you covered up things you know you wouldn't want other people to know you did? Have you ever hated anyone? Have you ever felt lust, or greed, or rage, or done anything petty or mean?
That is what we go to hell for? You should read the Old Testament, it is full of God doing most of those things.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:32 pmIn short, where do you stand? Do you agree with God, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23) or do you "make God out to be a liar" (1 John 1:10) about that?
You will no doubt be aware that when Jesus did his "Let he who is without sin" thing, he didn't see fit to cast one himself. My own view is that anyone worthy of praise would have been more concerned for the welfare of the woman, rather than the souls of the lunatics who thought stoning to death is an appropriate punishment for adultery.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:01 pm That is what we go to hell for?
Only if you want to. It's up to you.

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 1:12: "...But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name..."
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:47 pm...
Your god is a reflection of you. That’s why you protect it... and why other people are repelled by it.

It is tangled up in ego and hypocrisy.
It is limited and small-minded.
It is founded on divisiveness.
It glorifies you.
It does not represent nor embrace the whole, and pretends to be above that which it is fully a part of.

Can you not see the absurdity, blindness, and dishonesty? Or is that why you play so many games... to try to avoid seeing?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:13 pm Your god...
I see I was wise not to answer you. You're still in the same, rather blasphemous, frame of mind.

Thus, I wish you better than you wish for yourself. Be well.
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:12 pm
tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:01 pmThat is what we go to hell for?
Only if you want to. It's up to you.
What a crass thing to say. If it is true, it is because God wishes it. As an omnipotent being, it is within his power to make it not so and yet, in your view, he doesn't. And that's the point, isn't it? If we disagree with your view, you wish us to be burnt in hell. I must say, if such a thing as hell were to exist, it would surely be full of people who think as you do.
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:16 pm I wish you better than you wish for yourself. Be well.
:lol: Well, I don't need to wish for it. Thanks.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:12 pm
tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:01 pmThat is what we go to hell for?
Only if you want to. It's up to you.
What a crass thing to say.
Not at all. It's the simple fact. Your choice, your soul, your destiny.
As an omnipotent being, it is within his power to make it not so
Not at all. By definition, to "have a choice" means to have the ability to do one thing, or not to do it, and to do something else instead. To choose salvation means to have the potential to refuse it as well, or to seek salvation on your own terms.

Either way, if you are a free-will-having being, you make your own choices. To say, "God can leave me free but force me only to choose the good" is simply nonsense.

As C.S. Lewis put it,

“[God's] Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.
quoted from "The Problem of Pain"

But Jesus Himself asked, "What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"(Mark 8:36)

Great question. It is possible for you to choose whatever you think are your own temporal interests, and with that choice, lose your soul. So says Jesus Christ.
Advocate
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=507765 time=1618605412 user_id=9431]
[quote=tillingborn post_id=507761 time=1618601172 user_id=7001]
[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=507757 time=1618600328 user_id=9431]Only if you want to. It's up to you.[/quote]What a crass thing to say. [/quote]
Not at all. It's the simple fact. Your choice, your soul, your destiny.

[quote]As an omnipotent being, it is within his power to make it not so[/quote]
Not at all. By definition, to "have a choice" means to have the ability to do one thing, or not to do it, and to do something else instead. To choose salvation means to have the potential to refuse it as well, or to seek salvation on your own terms.

Either way, if you are a free-will-having being, you make your own choices. To say, "God can leave me free but force me only to choose the good" is simply nonsense.

As C.S. Lewis put it,

[color=#0000BF]“[God's] Omnipotence means power to do [b]all that is intrinsically possible,[/b] not to do [b]the intrinsically impossible[/b]. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: [b]meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' [/b]It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because [b]nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.[/b]”[/color]
quoted from "The Problem of Pain"

But Jesus Himself asked, [color=#0000BF]"What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"[/color](Mark 8:36)

Great question. It is possible for you to choose whatever you think are your own temporal interests, and with that choice, lose your soul. So says Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

Only one thing is possible, and that's whatever actually happens.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:05 pm Only one thing is possible, and that's whatever actually happens.
That means you're a Determinist.
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