You're not answering my challenge: why is that?tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:53 pmBy my reckoning, very few people get past the Pearly Gates, even in 'Christian' countries. Therefore, the majority of human souls end up discarded. Is that not true?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:48 pmYou need to answer my challenge, and I'll happily answer your question.
the righteous tyrant
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Here's the challenge I presume you meanImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:58 pmYou're not answering my challenge: why is that?tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:53 pmBy my reckoning, very few people get past the Pearly Gates, even in 'Christian' countries. Therefore, the majority of human souls end up discarded. Is that not true?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:48 pmYou need to answer my challenge, and I'll happily answer your question.
As for the latter part, it is based on your guess. Your guess is mistaken, so I am not obliged to answer it. To prove that people are not more precious than God believes, I would first have to prove that God exists. That is something even you cannot achieve, so I, with less interest in the matter, will struggle. You on the other hand, evidently exist in some format, and subscribe to a belief that most of humanity will burn in hell for eternity. It is for that reason that I can say without fear of contradiction that you care less about human life than it is worth.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:33 pmProve that. Let's see how you know.tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:30 pm People are far more precious than you or your God believe.
Your belief is that mankind is a cosmic mistake, a combination of nothing but time and chance, I'm guessing. Explain what makes this accident, this mere product of time and chance, "precious."
I asked you: Therefore, the majority of human souls end up discarded. Is that not true?
You cannot answer a simple question: why is that?
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You're dodging. Correct me, then: from where does mankind come, that he is, according to you, "precious." Because you assumed it in your complaint. And if he is not, then you've lost all rational grounds for complaint, right from the start. So show me why you believe your own complaint is rational.tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:27 pmAs for the latter part, it is based on your guess. Your guess is mistaken, so I am not obliged to answer it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:58 pm Let's see how you know.
Your belief is that mankind is a cosmic mistake, a combination of nothing but time and chance, I'm guessing. Explain what makes this accident, this mere product of time and chance, "precious."
But if you can show that mankind is somehow objectively "precious," then maybe you can ask the question you've been trying to ask me. And I'll answer it.
Re: the righteous tyrant
I write in many ways, depending on the discussion and the person I'm talking with. So, you can't/won't answer because people aren't asking you in a way that suits you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:58 pmYess...yess...you have a long record of polite, intelligent, fair-minded conversation, totally free from misrepresentation and abuse.
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I don't know and while I remain open to the possibility that the universe is the product of a supernatural being, you really aren't selling me your version.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:33 pmYou're dodging. Correct me, then: from where does mankind come, that he is, according to you, "precious."
I'm asking you to show me that it isn't. My understanding is that very few humans meet the entry requirements for Heaven. If exclusivity is your criterion for 'precious', then I agree with you, but it follows that most of humanity is junk in the eyes of you and your God.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:33 pmBecause you assumed it in your complaint. And if he is not, then you've lost all rational grounds for complaint, right from the start. So show me why you believe your own complaint is rational.
'Objectively precious' is a difficult thing to quantify. My question is a simple numbers thing. In your estimation, what percentage of people alive now will be 'saved'?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:33 pmBut if you can show that mankind is somehow objectively "precious," then maybe you can ask the question you've been trying to ask me. And I'll answer it.
Re: the righteous tyrant
A lie.
You've been accused by other people of the same behaviors I've called you out on: including slithering around and not answering them either.
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Oh good. What percentage of humans make it to Heaven?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:47 pmNo, I won't answer you, because you are still behaving like you.
Anybody else, I'm happy to answer.
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I'm not trying, and don't have to "sell" anything. What I have to do is see what warrant you have for your very bold claim to the effect that somebody "precious" is getting what he/she doesn't deserve.tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:49 pmI don't know and while I remain open to the possibility that the universe is the product of a supernatural being, you really aren't selling me your version.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:33 pmYou're dodging. Correct me, then: from where does mankind come, that he is, according to you, "precious."
So your answer is that you don't KNOW if anybody's precious. You hope they are, maybe, but have no certainty at all. So there's no meaning to your claim, and there's no question to answer, since you don't know that what you claim is happening is happening at all. Maybe nobody "precious" is having anything at all happening to them.
Is that where you want to settle?
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Re: the righteous tyrant
I want you to tell me what percentage of people make it to Heaven.
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Heh. Do you really think I am the one arbitrating that matter? Do you think I'm qualified to tell you? Or are you asking the wrong Person?tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:05 pmI want you to tell me what percentage of people make it to Heaven.
But on the matter of "preciousness," if none of them are known to be "precious," what does the number even matter? And you've already said you have no way of knowing what a person is worth. So logically, you need to establish first that something untoward, unfair, unjust is happening, and show how you know that it is. Otherwise, there's no question in your question.
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You claim to understand the rules. If so, a ballpark figure shouldn't be beyond you. I won't hold you to it, but how many citizens of Iran do you anticipate meeting in the afterlife, for example?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:09 pmHeh. Do you really think I am the one arbitrating that matter?tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:05 pmI want you to tell me what percentage of people make it to Heaven.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
Point to anywhere I said I know "how many people make it to Heaven." I guarantee you that no such utterance ever escaped me.tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:16 pmYou claim to understand the rules.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:09 pmHeh. Do you really think I am the one arbitrating that matter?tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:05 pmI want you to tell me what percentage of people make it to Heaven.
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Indeed you didn't, but you think you know what one has to do for any individual get there. On that basis, roughly what percentage of non-Christian people, who have always been the majority of incorporated souls, are in Heaven now?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:18 pmPoint to anywhere I said I know "how many people make it to Heaven." I guarantee you that no such utterance ever escaped me.
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Re: the righteous tyrant
I know what the Scriptures say. That's as much as I know. And the Scriptures are not obscure or difficult to understand on this point:tillingborn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:26 pm ...you think you know what one has to do for any individual get there...
"This [Jesus] was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God." (John 1:9-13)
Now, it seems to me that maybe you know who Jesus is. And if, perchance, you don't know enough, it's not because you lack the resources, but only because you don't want to know, and have chosen not to avail yourself of the abundance of information clearly available to you. The offer of salvation is for you; there is no reason but the choice you might make not to receive the message that you will not be saved.
So what does it matter what you want to say about people in Persia or Paris or Port-au-Prince? They are not you. You are not in their situation. God will do right by them; but they are not you. The offer has been made clearly, plainly and manifestly, to you...if never before, it's just been made now, above, in the passage in blue.
Your choice. Your life. Your soul. Your call.