the righteous tyrant

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henry quirk
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:57 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:53 pm is God the omniscient, benevolent, omnipotent God of the modern deists?

I see him as distant, interested, but uninvolved.

I must an an old school deist.
If there is a God, I hope s/he/it is that too. Some of the other portrayals of him/her/it don't seem so godly.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:22 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:13 pm Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?
Let me refer you to the authoritative source, rather than to personal opinion. There are, in fact, 66 famous books on the subject. They're called "The Bible."
Is God really the jealous god of Abraham who has to ask...
Does God have to "ask" anything, Gary? But surely, you know of the idea of a rhetorical question, right? And as for "jealous," what would you think of a man who was not "jealous" his wife was having an affair with the postman? Does he love his wife, or is what the has in respect to her something considerably less than love?
Or is God the omniscient, benevolent, omnipotent God of the modern deists?
Well, it's a bit of a false dichotomy, isn't it, Gary? Is it either that God is benevolent or He's just, or in order to be truly benevolent, does He not have to be just as well? What I'm suggesting is that any God who does not deal with the evil and injustice that you and I see in the world daily, but rather turns a blind eye to it all, can we speak of Him as being benevolent? Or would that just be a god who was a kind of senile grandfather -- capable of being very nice, but blithely unaware of evil?

But if God is ONLY just, and has no mercy, then obviously, he's not good either, right?

So it raises the question: how can God be both just and merciful; for are not both essential to goodness?
The God of the Quran or the Vedas?

These are very different gods, if you read about them in the Koran or the Gita -- both of which I have read. It's certainly not true that He can be both, although in one or two ways, they do have a few similarities.

The former is a very distant, legalistic tyrant, who definitively has no contact points with humanity and issues mere edicts at a distance, and the latter is no different from Krishna, who is also the Great Destroyer, the Devourer of Worlds, a gigantic, slavering, consuming jaw... Neither has any conception of God being love. So in both of these depictions, the god's mercy is sacrificed to some other quality of his character....in the former, rectitude, in the latter, a kind of cosmic fatalism.
Or is God something/someone else altogether?
What about the God of the Bible?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:37 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:57 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:53 pm is God the omniscient, benevolent, omnipotent God of the modern deists?

I see him as distant, interested, but uninvolved.

I must an an old school deist.
If there is a God, I hope s/he/it is that too. Some of the other portrayals of him/her/it don't seem so godly.
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:55 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 pm You write great volumes trying to invalidate all that you don't agree with, yet you refuse to explain in your own words why you believe what you do, and why you make the claims you do.
Ha. :D I haven't exactly been shy about that. You must not have read much of it, though.
So, can you point me to where you've answered the following questions... or answer them again now in your own words?

Who do YOU think God is? And how do YOU think he operates?

You said to Tillingborn: "You think that's who God is? You think that's how He operates? Well, now I can say for certain you don't know God."

So why not explain your view that is in contrast?
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:21 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:07 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:50 pmWell, now I can say for certain you don't know God. But your mistake is common enough, I suppose.
If it is a common error, I would hope that Christians have found a way to correct it.
They have. Many times. But not everybody has ears to hear it.
You have stated that the universe shows evidence of intelligent design. That being so, should anyone lack the appropriate ears, presumably you accept it as an oversight of the designer.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:21 pmSome people are more interested in dismissing the whole idea of God than in knowing Him. Sad, but true.
I asked you simply whether God watches us all the time, demands absolute obedience and threatens hideous punishment if we fail to please him. Perhaps my ears are dysfunctional, but I can read. What error have I made in my analysis of your understanding of God? You appear to support this understanding when you warn us that we will be punished for arguing with you.
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by uwot »

tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:44 amYou appear to support this understanding when you warn us that we will be punished for arguing with you.
Mr Can is an intellectual limp dick. The more you point out the obvious flaws in his arguments, the more he will decide that it is in YOUR interest that he stops talking to you. It's just narcissism. As Xenophanes pointed out:

But mortals suppose gods are born,
Wear their own clothes and have a voice and body.
The Ethiopians say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
While Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair.
Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw,
And could sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods
Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each would shape
Bodies of gods in the likeness, each of their own kind.

Gods are created in the image of their creator. The reason Mr Can's god comes across as a snarky, petty, right wing pedant is because that is what Mr Can is. I wouldn't waste your time on him frankly.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:42 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:55 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 pm You write great volumes trying to invalidate all that you don't agree with, yet you refuse to explain in your own words why you believe what you do, and why you make the claims you do.
Ha. :D I haven't exactly been shy about that. You must not have read much of it, though.
So, can you point me to where you've answered the following questions...
Sure. There are actually three threads that DAM spun out, where she and I discuss the issue at length. They're all called "Putting IC in the Religious Spotlight," 1, 2 and 3.

Or, if that seems a lot of work to you, just hang out and see where this conversation goes.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:44 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:21 pm
tillingborn wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:07 pm If it is a common error, I would hope that Christians have found a way to correct it.
They have. Many times. But not everybody has ears to hear it.
You have stated that the universe shows evidence of intelligent design. That being so, should anyone lack the appropriate ears, presumably you accept it as an oversight of the designer.
Not at all. For man was not designed that way. He chose to become that way.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:21 pmWhat error have I made in my analysis of your understanding of God?
Well, pick one of your own phrases, and let's see how it stacks up.
You appear to support this understanding when you warn us that we will be punished for arguing with you.
Heh. :D There is no punishment for arguing with me, of course. I'm just an ordinary person, as I'm sure you know. And even God Himself does not hesitate to answer questions, provided they're asked in sincerity: many persons in the Bible, or the whole books of Job or Habakkuk would prove that, for sure. God is not hesitant about questions, or even arguing, so long as it is done with good intent.

But when a person sets himself or herself against God, speaks defiantly and without respect, daring and challenging God to answer rather than opening a conversation, that person can expect no answers at all. And when a person willfully and stubbornly rejects the possibility of relationship with the source of light, goodness, health, hope and life, what can he expect? And if, perhaps, he goes even further and derides God, mocks God, insults God...what does such a person himself call for? What is he sucking around to get?

In the end, we all get exactly what we ask for, in regards to God. Those who seek, find. (Matthew 7:7). Those who defy God, lose. (Psalm 2:1-5)
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:14 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:42 am can you point me to where you've answered the following questions...
Sure. There are actually three threads that DAM spun out, where she and I discuss the issue at length. They're all called "Putting IC in the Religious Spotlight," 1, 2 and 3.

Or, if that seems a lot of work to you, just hang out and see where this conversation goes.
uwot sums it up well...
uwot wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:08 am Mr Can is an intellectual limp dick. .../... It's just narcissism.

Gods are created in the image of their creator. The reason Mr Can's god comes across as a snarky, petty, right wing pedant is because that is what Mr Can is. I wouldn't waste your time on him frankly.
Your inability to answer questions, I.C., in the way that you expect others to answer the questions you pose to them, is such a chicken-shit little dance that you do. You've represented theism as being unashamedly dishonest and deceptive, and openly fabricated and manipulated to serve oneself/yourself. I've given you the benefit of the doubt in thinking you must be aware to some degree of what you're doing, and that you might eventually allow more honesty to surface. How can you accept such dishonesty and nonsense from yourself (as you would not accept from another) and continually act as if no one else can see what you're doing, even when they point it out?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:46 pm Your inability to answer questions, I.C....
Hmm...

Let's see...the person who does nothing but spit abuse wants me to dance to her tune...

I'll get back to you when I've decided to entertain that.
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:05 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:46 pm Your inability to answer questions, I.C....
Hmm...

Let's see...the person who does nothing but spit abuse wants me to dance to her tune...

I'll get back to you when I've decided to entertain that.
Oh... :lol: ...is it abuse to point out that you do not answer questions in the way that you want others to answer your questions? Truth = abuse? Interesting.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:27 pm Oh... :lol: ...is it abuse to point out that you do not answer questions in the way that you want others to answer your questions?
No. But it's Biblical not to answer a person who is not sincere in interest (Prov. 26:4). And up to this point, you've given me no indication you care to do anything but rant and rail, so it's no wonder I'm not responding, really.

Be nice. You might get more for that than for being difficult. You don't have to believe me, and you can question me; but there's no reason you have to be abusive or rude. They're not elements of rational debate.
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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[quote="Immanuel Can" post_id=507730 time=1618591230 user_id=9431]
[quote=Lacewing post_id=507728 time=1618590421 user_id=11228]
Oh... :lol: ...is it abuse to point out that you do not answer questions in the way that you want others to answer your questions?
[/quote]
No. But it's Biblical not to answer a person who is not sincere in interest (Prov. 26:4). And up to this point, you've given me no indication you care to do anything but rant and rail, so it's no wonder I'm not responding, really.

Be nice. You might get more for that than for being difficult. You don't have to believe me, and you can question me; but there's no reason you have to be abusive or rude. They're not elements of rational debate.
[/quote]

Neither are imaginary forces that cannot be replicably verified.
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Lacewing
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:40 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:27 pm Oh... :lol: ...is it abuse to point out that you do not answer questions in the way that you want others to answer your questions?
No. But it's Biblical not to answer a person who is not sincere in interest (Prov. 26:4). And up to this point, you've given me no indication you care to do anything but rant and rail, so it's no wonder I'm not responding, really.

Be nice. You might get more for that than for being difficult. You don't have to believe me, and you can question me; but there's no reason you have to be abusive or rude. They're not elements of rational debate.
I've been very nice in asking you to state your perspective that is in contrast to what you claimed someone else was "wrong" about. And repeatedly, you insist that I go looking for your answer -- which would not be an acceptable way for someone to answer your questions. So why the games? Why the evasiveness? And then you act insulted and abused when I say you're being deceptive or dishonest. Just answer the questions right here and now, as you would want someone to do for you. Be honest. Stop the games. Those are not elements of rational debate.
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by tillingborn »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:30 pm
tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:44 amYou have stated that the universe shows evidence of intelligent design. That being so, should anyone lack the appropriate ears, presumably you accept it as an oversight of the designer.
Not at all. For man was not designed that way. He chose to become that way.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I take it you are a man. Can you say when and why you chose to be wicked?
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