the righteous tyrant

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Sculptor
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:35 pm ...the evidence I have presented.
Show me some "evidence" and I'll deal with it. Until then, I feel no particular need to address mere posture-striking or empty rhetoric.
The evidence of history.
Where is your justification; none.
You are just spouting your "objectivity " bollocks as per usual.
Skepdick
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:54 pm The evidence of history.
Where is your justification; none.
You are just spouting your "objectivity " bollocks as per usual.
Objectively, history got better. And better. And better.

Why?
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pmIf we start by believing that this world is merely a random product of time plus chance, and that it has no inherent purpose, no objective moral facts in it, and no ultimate telos or goal, then the answer is going to be "legitimation looks like a fiction," and plausibly, like Nietzsche said, merely a sort of attempt by the supporters of one regime to (illegitimately) seize power over others." And that's all it's ever going to be, if that's the supposition we start with, so nothing is every going to be "legitimate." It's all going to be a fix.
Isn't that exactly what we do see? What difference does God make to the world we experience?
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by tillingborn »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:03 pmObjectively, history got better. And better. And better.

Why?
Veritas Aequitus will be happy to tell you.
Skepdick
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Skepdick »

tillingborn wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:07 pm Veritas Aequitus will be happy to tell you.
He doesn't have to.

What he's looking for is the theory which explains it.

I am pointing at the phenomenon without seeking any explanation for it, but you are welcome to call its explanation whatever you want.

Call it "God" if it triggers you.

Call it "a driving force greater than any given individual".
Call it Progress.
Call it Society.
Call it Objective morality.
Call it Negentropy.
Gary Childress
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:15 pm
tillingborn wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:07 pm Veritas Aequitus will be happy to tell you.
He doesn't have to.

What he's looking for is the theory which explains it.

I am pointing at the phenomenon without seeking any explanation for it, but you are welcome to call its explanation whatever you want.

Call it "God" if it triggers you.

Call it "a driving force greater than any given individual".
Call it Progress.
Call it Society.
Call it Objective morality.
Call it Negentropy.
Is negentropy always a good thing (speaking from a social standpoint)? I mean, I will agree that as a technological society we have become more and more ordered and have exerted greater control over our surroundings but I wonder if we aren't at the same time driving ourselves insane. Sometimes I wonder if, at heart, we aren't still hunter-gatherers wandering the savannah. Contemporary society seems to have a number of unpleasing aspects to it.
tillingborn
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by tillingborn »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:15 pmI am pointing at the phenomenon without seeking any explanation for it...
What is the phenomenon you are pointing at?
Skepdick
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Skepdick »

tillingborn wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:21 pm What is the phenomenon you are pointing at?
Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:03 pm Objectively, history got better. And better. And better.
The objective betterness of life in 2021 AD as compared to 2021 BC is a fact.

Least you want to insist that no point in human history is better or worse than any other (which is the pickle Sculptor has found himself in).
Skepdick
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:19 pm Is negentropy always a good thing (speaking from a social standpoint)? I mean, I will agree that as a technological society we have become more and more ordered and have exerted greater control over our surroundings but I wonder if we aren't at the same time driving ourselves insane. Sometimes I wonder if, at heart, we aren't still hunter-gatherers wandering the savannah. Contemporary society seems to have a number of unpleasing aspects to it.
Our psychology is maladapted to the environment we've created for ourselves. Things definitely changed faster than our brains could evolve - so yeah, it's causing a whole lot of folk a whole lot of anxiety.

But in so far as entropy is bad for living things, negentropy is always a good thing. And society is striving to be a negentropic system.
Gary Childress
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:57 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:19 pm Is negentropy always a good thing (speaking from a social standpoint)? I mean, I will agree that as a technological society we have become more and more ordered and have exerted greater control over our surroundings but I wonder if we aren't at the same time driving ourselves insane. Sometimes I wonder if, at heart, we aren't still hunter-gatherers wandering the savannah. Contemporary society seems to have a number of unpleasing aspects to it.
Our psychology is maladapted to the environment we've created for ourselves. Things definitely changed faster than our brains could evolve - so yeah, it's causing a whole lot of folk a whole lot of anxiety.

But in so far as entropy is bad for living things, negentropy is always a good thing.
I guess it depends upon what is meant by entropy and negentropy? They both refer to order arising out of non-order or else the opposite. What sort of order are we talking about? Are we talking about (for example) paving over half the planet in concrete because we can better organize vehicular movement and non-vehicular areas? I would suggest that leaving more of the planet with wilderness than with pavement would seem to be healthier for us and our overall habitat. I would think there are good ways and bad ways to order things.
Skepdick
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Skepdick »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:09 pm I guess it depends upon what is meant by entropy and negentropy?
Imagine all the atoms/molecules/particles of your body randomly mixed up in a bucket without any particular structure/organisation. Cosmic dust.

Entropy.

Imagine all the atoms/molecules/particles of your body structured/organised precisely in the way necessary for you to be alive right now. A human being.

Negentropy.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:35 pm ...the evidence I have presented.
Show me some "evidence" and I'll deal with it. Until then, I feel no particular need to address mere posture-striking or empty rhetoric.
The evidence of history.
Heh. :D That's a liiiiitle broad. Can you give some specific evidence?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:05 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pmIf we start by believing that this world is merely a random product of time plus chance, and that it has no inherent purpose, no objective moral facts in it, and no ultimate telos or goal, then the answer is going to be "legitimation looks like a fiction," and plausibly, like Nietzsche said, merely a sort of attempt by the supporters of one regime to (illegitimately) seize power over others." And that's all it's ever going to be, if that's the supposition we start with, so nothing is every going to be "legitimate." It's all going to be a fix.
Isn't that exactly what we do see?
Well some people claim to see nothing. I don't really believe them, but I'm not in a position to say they can't see what's obvious to me, so I guess they've got me there...I can't say they're not blind if they say they are. But it looks to me undeniable, on any rational or empirical basis, to think this world is not the product of an intelligent Designer.

Now, I can also appeal to a number of other things...mathematics, reason, moral realism, revelation, miracles, experience, the person of Jesus Christ, and so on. But the doubter will say, "Well, I don't see any of that...or believe in any of that...so none of that counts to me." And what's my comeback to that? If nothing counts, then nothing counts...nobody can make another person recognize evidence AS evidence, if they are determined not to.

So we've got a stalemate there, in terms of any appeal to appearances. I see the evidence of God, and others say they see no evidence. What can be said about that, except that somebody's wrong?

But if God does exist, as I believe He certainly does, then legitimation is possible. If he does not, then it's not. So in response to your question,
What difference does God make to the world we experience?
I would say, "All the difference in the world." And in regard to legitimation, He alone makes legitimation a rational idea.
Gary Childress
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Gary Childress »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:09 pm I guess it depends upon what is meant by entropy and negentropy?
Imagine all the atoms/molecules/particles of your body randomly mixed up in a bucket without any particular structure/organisation. Cosmic dust.

Entropy.

Imagine all the atoms/molecules/particles of your body structured/organised precisely in the way necessary for you to be alive right now. A human being.

Negentropy.
OK. Fair enough.
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Sculptor
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Re: the righteous tyrant

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:19 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:45 pm
Show me some "evidence" and I'll deal with it. Until then, I feel no particular need to address mere posture-striking or empty rhetoric.
The evidence of history.
Heh. :D That's a liiiiitle broad. Can you give some specific evidence?
You are making a claim, not me.

Fact there was once a time when there were no universals of tyrrany.
That means all technologies of power have been invented, not pulled out of a magic hat with "universal tyrrany" written on it.
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