freedom through chaos

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:19 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:16 pm
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:15 pm If working toward opposing ends doesn't create conflict in your definition, i simply don't know what language you're speaking.
There's no opposition - you've manufactured it.

Science is working towards freedom FROM chaos.
Of these common definitions (Google default)...:

a serious disagreement or argument, typically a protracted one.

a prolonged armed struggle.

be incompatible or at variance; clash.

...two of them are compatible with my contention and one for yours. You've used the entire set of definitions as though only the one that requires personal dispute is appropriate. Care to explain?
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:32 pm >The source of "incompatibility" is your very reference frame - abandon it.

My reference frame is our position in the universe and society. I don't think i shall.
No, it's not. Your reference frame is the 3rd definition. Authoritarianism is incompatible/clashes with chaos.

That's the reference frame from which you are asserting the superiority of chaos over authoritarianism, but your scale is all fucked up.

The universe is chaos. It's MUCH bigger than society.

In my reference frame authoritarianism (rule-invention, and rule-following) is an instrument for combatting chaos.
Advocate
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Advocate »

>That's the reference frame from which you are asserting the superiority of chaos over authoritarianism.

The contention is that chaos allows for individual control while authoritarianism does not disallow chaos. One is clearly superior to the other for all intents and purposes Other than authoritarianism. However, since that's a false dichotomy, applying it in any individual instance isn't comparing actual chaos with actual authoritarianism. You've chosen a frame of reference for me that simply doesn't apply. Mine is absolute, yours is contingent.

>In my reference frame authoritarianism (rule-invention, and rule-following) is an instrument for combatting chaos.

I concur. I think you misunderstand our apparent misunderstanding. Chaos is not superior for any human goal Except when it is opposed by authoritarianism.
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:38 pm The contention is that chaos allows for individual control while authoritarianism does not disallow chaos.
Your scale of reference is ALL. FUCKED. UP.

The ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS CHAOS.

Authoritarianism is a political system on planet Earth.

To insist that "authoritarianism doesn't allow chaos" is to ascribe the power/control necessary to control the universe.

Humans don't have that!
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:38 pm One is clearly superior to the other for all intents and purposes Other than authoritarianism. However, since that's a false dichotomy, applying it in any individual instance isn't comparing actual chaos with actual authoritarianism. You've chosen a frame of reference for me that simply doesn't apply. Mine is absolute, yours is contingent.
You got that backwards.

CHAOS is absolute - The universe!
Authoritarianism is contingent - it's human invention.
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:38 pm I concur. I think you misunderstand our apparent misunderstanding. Chaos is not superior for any human goal Except when it is opposed by authoritarianism.
You are definitely misunderstanding. Chaos (the universe) is the very thing that fucks up ALL human goals.

It imposes limits on us - limits that we don't understand. Limits that constantly prevent us from achieving our goals.
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Terrapin Station »

Advocate wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:53 am freedom, the final purpose of safety
???

This board is often like a carnival dark ride through a loony bin . . . and that's weird and very disappointing, by the way, because the magazine this board is connected to is often worthwhile and you'd think that plenty of people interested in philosophy who aren't loons would read the magazine and be tempted to post here. Instead we have the same 10 people or so writing the vast majority of the posts, and it's like a set of illustrations for DSM 5 disorders.
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Advocate
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Advocate »

>The ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS CHAOS.
>Authoritarianism is a political system on planet Earth.
>To insist that "authoritarianism doesn't allow chaos" is to ascribe the power/control necessary to control the universe.
>Humans don't have that!

I do not conflate the scale of the universe with the scale within which authoritarianism resides and there is no reason to suppose so. Chaos v. authoritarianism is Earth-bound, and so the chaos i'm discussing is that within the sphere of influence of Earth. IF the authoritarianism was broader, my contentions would apply on a broader level. The scale-shifting going on here is not my own. Authoritarianism doesn't allow chaos by intent.. The whole point is to anti-chaos whatever it can. Whether and how or on what scale it is successful are very different questions. You can't simply switch arbitrarily back and forth between the theoretical and the practical and hope to have an intelligent conversation.

"Authoritarian does not allow chaos" to the extent it has that power. You're conflating universals and particulars, theory and pragmatic application.
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm I do not conflate the scale of the universe with the scale within which authoritarianism resides and there is no reason to suppose so. Chaos v. authoritarianism is Earth-bound
He says he doesn't conflate scale and then he bounds chaos (THE UNIVERSE) to Earth.

You know that the universe is significantly larger than Earth, yea?
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm , and so the chaos i'm discussing is that within the sphere of influence of Earth.
Q.E.D you are discussing the universe in the context of Earth. That totally makes sense!

Not.
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm IF the authoritarianism was broader, my contentions would apply on a broader level.
Authoritarianism isn't broader. Authoritarianism is about as local as it gets. It's about Earth!

Chaos is broader! A lot broader! Chaos is about the ENTIRE UNIVERSE.
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm The scale-shifting going on here is not my own. Authoritarianism doesn't allow chaos by intent..
What do you mean "allow" chaos? In what universe do humans (authoritarians) allow the universe (CHAOS!!!) anything?
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm The whole point is to anti-chaos whatever it can. Whether and how or on what scale it is successful are very different questions. You can't simply switch arbitrarily back and forth between the theoretical and the practical and hope to have an intelligent conversation.
The theoretical (CHAOS THEORY) exists in service of the practical. When you adopt the language of chaos theory, I would reasonably expect you to be using the language for some practical purposes.

You haven't told me what those are yet.
Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:50 pm "Authoritarian does not allow chaos" to the extent it has that power. You're conflating universals and particulars, theory and pragmatic application.
I am not conflating them. I am USING the language of Chaos theory for practical purposes for the purposes of interpreting/understanding reality as a chaotic system. It is a useful interpretation for very many practical purposes!
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Terrapin Station wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:44 pm Instead we have the same 10 people or so writing the vast majority of the posts, and it's like a set of illustrations for DSM 5 disorders.
You say "disorders" - I say philosophical positions.
You say "loons" - I say "ad hominem".

Least you insist on pretending that psychology has any credibility.

The way you seem to think philosophy OUGHT to be practiced amounts to tribalism. Your dearest social norms. Ah! The intolerance of the tolerant :)
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Sculptor »

Advocate wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:53 am Authoritarianism is not superior to chaos. At least in chaos freedom, the final purpose of safety, is possible. With authoritarianism there is not necessarily a possibility of meaningful freedom.
neither of these terms are absolute, therefore your post is meaningless.
How long is a piece of string?
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Sculptor post_id=495531 time=1612977156 user_id=17400]
[quote=Advocate post_id=495250 time=1612853598 user_id=15238]
Authoritarianism is not superior to chaos. At least in chaos freedom, the final purpose of safety, is possible. With authoritarianism there is not necessarily a possibility of meaningful freedom.
[/quote]

neither of these terms are absolute, therefore your post is meaningless.
How long is a piece of string?
[/quote]

Discussing the relationship between the logical ends of a scale is not irrelevant to what actually occurs in the middle. Understanding the boundaries helps us understand how to approach or avoid them. The post is about the relationship between the extremes - that is, the forces that affect what happens in the middle. It's perfectly meaningful and pragmatic; albeit fuzzy.
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:39 pm Discussing the relationship between the logical ends of a scale is not irrelevant to what actually occurs in the middle. Understanding the boundaries helps us understand how to approach or avoid them. The post is about the relationship between the extremes - that is, the forces that affect what happens in the middle. It's perfectly meaningful and pragmatic.
So on the one side of the scale you have The Entire Universe and you think Earth is "the middle" of the scale ?

Yeah. Your sense of proportion is fuuuuucked.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You probably also think that you are "middle class".

https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:39 pm Discussing the relationship between the logical ends of a scale is not irrelevant to what actually occurs in the middle. Understanding the boundaries helps us understand how to approach or avoid them. The post is about the relationship between the extremes - that is, the forces that affect what happens in the middle. It's perfectly meaningful and pragmatic; albeit fuzzy.
Here's some more re-calibration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i93Z7zljQ7I
Advocate
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skepdick post_id=495539 time=1612978890 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=495538 time=1612978775 user_id=15238]
Discussing the relationship between the logical ends of a scale is not irrelevant to what actually occurs in the middle. Understanding the boundaries helps us understand how to approach or avoid them. The post is about the relationship between the extremes - that is, the forces that affect what happens in the middle. It's perfectly meaningful and pragmatic.
[/quote]
So on the one side of the scale you have The Entire Universe and you think Earth is "the middle" of the scale ?

Yeah. Your sense of proportion is fuuuuucked.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You probably also think that you are "middle class".

https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
[/quote]

I can't even argue with you because you never have a remotely accurate interpretation of the words i say.
Skepdick
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Re: freedom through chaos

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:39 pm I can't even argue with you because you never have a remotely accurate interpretation of the words i say.
You are speaking about Chaos (theory)
You are USING the language/vocabulary of Chaos (theory)

Therefore it's not unreasonable of me to assume that you have adopted the ontological assumptions and the semantics of Chaos (theory).

In doing so, I ASSUMED that you've surrendered your own language/semantics (whatever those may be) and you've adopted the language/vocabulary/framework/semantics/interpretation of Chaos(theory), which is the most general and complete understanding of the notion of Chaos.

And so I am interpreting everything you say about Chaos from the semantics of Chaos(theory).

If Chaos (theory) is not the accurate/holistic/general interpretation/semantic for the concept of "chaos", then what is?
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