Libertarian Fascism again

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Advocate
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Libertarian Fascism again

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It is perfectly reasonable for a (legitimate) State to create social hierarchies along management lines, such as intelligence. The check on such attempts must be to assume each individual has the maximum capacity reasonable to accept until such time as they exhibit otherwise. It is particularly important that the system ensures the standards used to accept people into positions of authority, including basic citizenship, can be meaningfully challenged and that the basis for them be always transparent and explicit. Legitimacy is first known by the procedures used to select who gets to be in charge.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

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Were you going to write anything about libertarianism or fascism?
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

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[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=494606 time=1612551996 user_id=12582]
Were you going to write anything about libertarianism or fascism?
[/quote]

Most people would consider the idea of intellectual castes to be fascist. Libertarianism is generically about how to keep the government small. Both are addressed.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by Terrapin Station »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:27 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:06 pm Were you going to write anything about libertarianism or fascism?
Most people would consider the idea of intellectual castes to be fascist. Libertarianism is generically about how to keep the government small. Both are addressed.
I'm not sure just what counts as an intellectual "caste" in your view, but why would that be "fascist"? It seems like you're using terms with very idiosyncratic personal definitions.

"Keeping the government small" isn't the trump card for the vast majority of libertarians. Stuff like not prohibiting consensual behavior is usually the trump card, and keeping government small is more of an upshot of this. Libertarians certainly don't want to do away with (almost) all government or anything like that. (By the way, I was pretty involved with the U.S. Libertarian Party for a number of years, to an extent that when Harry Browne was running for president I escorted him to a number of radio and TV interviews in Florida. I'm no longer "just a libertarian," but I still have a lot of libertarian views (and minarchist libertarian views at that) and I consider myself a "libertarian socialist" now.)
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

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[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=494734 time=1612624258 user_id=12582]
[quote=Advocate post_id=494613 time=1612553275 user_id=15238]
[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=494606 time=1612551996 user_id=12582]
Were you going to write anything about libertarianism or fascism?
[/quote]

Most people would consider the idea of intellectual castes to be fascist. Libertarianism is generically about how to keep the government small. Both are addressed.
[/quote]

I'm not sure just what counts as an intellectual "caste" in your view, but why would that be "fascist"? It seems like you're using terms with very idiosyncratic personal definitions.

"Keeping the government small" isn't the trump card for the vast majority of libertarians. Stuff like not prohibiting consensual behavior is usually the trump card, and keeping government small is more of an upshot of this. Libertarians certainly don't want to do away with (almost) all government or anything like that. (By the way, I was pretty involved with the U.S. Libertarian Party for a number of years, to an extent that when Harry Browne was running for president I escorted him to a number of radio and TV interviews in Florida. I'm no longer "just a libertarian," but I still have a lot of libertarian views (and minarchist libertarian views at that) and I consider myself a "libertarian socialist" now.)
[/quote]

I could address your points but i think the larger one is that you're using a lot more precision than is necessary to my point. Yes, i'm using a very sloppy loose common definition of fascism, because it's sufficient to get the point across of "controlling thing most people consider bad".
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

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Terrapin Station wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:10 pm "Keeping the government small" isn't the trump card for the vast majority of libertarians. Stuff like not prohibiting consensual behavior is usually the trump card, and keeping government small is more of an upshot of this.
Lolbertarians don't understand non-linearity, scale and complex system dynamics.

Consensual behaviour is hardly ever a problem. The externalities of mass-scale consensual behaviour on the other hand...
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

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>Lolbertarians don't understand non-linearity, scale and complex system dynamics.

I think scale covers all of that.

>Consensual behaviour is hardly ever a problem.

...needs explanation
Skepdick
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:08 pm I think scale covers all of that.
It doesn't. Society is anything but scale invariant

What works at family-scale, doesn't work at community scale.
What works at community-scale, doesn't work at city-scale.
What works at city-scale, doesn't work at county-scale.
What works at country-scale doesn't work at global scale.

We have reasonable consensus on the kinds of outcomes which are harmful/undesirable/bad but the prevention mechanisms for those are not scale-invariant and it gets tricky when preventing badness conflicts with people's wealth, but then politics plays out etc.

Of course, there are exceptions - like COVID. Our bodies are pretty "standard "(thanks nature, for the blueprint) so vaccines are less context-sensitive than geo-politics, so economies of scale totally makes sense.
Advocate wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:08 pm ...needs explanation
Libertarianism operates on the principle of the efficiency/fairness/self-correction of the free market. It's all consensual, until it blows up.

There's an endless list of free market (systemic) failures. This is but one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

So the free market invented self-regulation. Governments to prevent market failures.
Society is a self-organizing system. It smart enough to re-route around failure. That's why the internet works the way it does - we copied our natural behaviour.

So if you want to give it to the Lolbertarians, the free market does (sorta) work... but then they become idealist zealots (like everyone else) and try to remove the evolved safety nets (governments).
Skepdick
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:08 pm >Lolbertarians don't understand non-linearity, scale and complex system dynamics.

I think scale covers all of that.

>Consensual behaviour is hardly ever a problem.

...needs explanation
Just stumbled upon this... sums up the theoretical grounding.

https://complexityexplained.github.io/
gaffo
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by gaffo »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:06 pm Were you going to write anything about libertarianism or fascism?
exactly, poser make a claim Liberariansism= Facsism and does not address the headin gof the thread!

theheading is idiotic because Fascism is about the collective - white-german-etc.....Libertarinism is all about the individual.
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by gaffo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:21 pm
Libertarianism operates on the principle of the efficiency/fairness/self-correction of the free market. It's all consensual, until it blows up.

T
the above is only the rightwing Libs, the leftwing - like me - are all about the ACLU - individual right - right to a church of satan/etc.....as long as you don't hurt othres you can fuck dogs tetc..
gaffo
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Re: Libertarian Fascism again

Post by gaffo »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:21 pm [


So if you want to give it to the Lolbertarians, the free market does (sorta) work... but then they become idealist zealots (like everyone else) and try to remove the evolved safety nets (governments).
ageed - though i am a "leftie" so no problem eith using gov to break up monoplies.

as i said am a left libertarian - so individual freedom is vital - until it hurts others thne not.
a for corp freedom - i do not love corps - and citizen united was a abonomal ruling by the SC.
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