The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by FlashDangerpants »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 pm and thereby the rest of the nations.
I don't normally like to promote nonsense discussions about American Exceptionalism, but there are significant differences here that mean you guys are largely in this particular fail-loop on your own, at least among functional rich world democracies. Here's a few off the top of my head...

1. No other country that I can think of has such an activist supreme court. We don't allow politicians to appoint judges, we don't permit them to interfere in that process in any way. The political affiliations of our judiciary are seldom an issue. When we need a new law it is written by parliament and applied by the fucking judges. Hardly any laws are struck down on constitutional grounds because we expect our parliaments to deal with constitutional issues prior to promulgation.

2. Only France has anything similar (actually a bit more overpowered) to an American executive president. Everywhere else we have Prime Ministers who can be booted from office at any time, have no powers of pardon, and rarely much by way of decree powers.

3. No other democracy is tied up in a two party system quite like yours. Even the UK, which has only had prime ministers from two parties in almost a century isn't a two party state. Most of Europe is ruled by coalitions as the norm.

4. No other nation would tolerate the sort of gerrymandering that is completely standard in the USA. The sheer notion of allowing politicians to redraw their electoral boundaries strikes every nation in Europe as quite insane. It's not uncommon for there to be electoral districts whose collective vote is knowable in advance of the election (I live in one) but you can't seriously hope to rule a nation on the basis of them. I remember one gerrymandering controversy in the UK, it was trivial in all honesty, some social housing was sold off because the local authority that owned it thought that owner occupiers would be more likely to vote for the right wing. It wasn outrage and the person held responsible was personally fined 12 million pounds (roughly 20 million dollars at the time).

5. Nobody else has such an immutable constitution - we aren't prisoners of laws written before the abolition of slavery when only one in ten could read and only men could vote. And if we have a disagreement about what one of our laws actually means, we don't hold a seance to find out what the ghost of the man who wrote it with a feather intended, we just clarify it with a new law.

6. We do have imbalances that make a rural vote slightly more valuable than an urban one, in Japan that is really very pronounced due to the electoral boundaries having been drawn up decades ago. And everywhere with first-past-the-post elections a plurality of votes is sadly sufficient to get a fairly hefty parliamentary majority. But we certainly wouldn't put up with an electoral college, I can't think of anywhere else that you can actually get less votes than another party and still hold the levers of power.

7. We don't shoot each other very much, and we don't worry very much about people trying to shoot us either.

8. Most of us don't mix religion and electoral politics very much. It's not unkown in Western Europe for a relgious sect to form a decisive voter bloc, but it's certainly rare, and they tend to be centre-right rather than completely fucking rabid.

Obviously Europe, Korea and Japan are all capable of large scale political corruption scandals, we do them a lot and very well too, we're not made out of different stuff to Americans. We are also just as susceptible to populism: borderline Nazis have gained significant political office in Sweden, Holland and Greece in recent years, and my own nation is fucking up that Brexit thing even worse than expected.

But we are all much less likely to end up having to make the sort of crazy last ditch defence of our basic political institutions that you guys have been doing recently because our political parties fracture instead of fighting eternal dirty civil wars, so we end up with the relevant number of parties for the times. And because we don't have to worry much that all our judges work for our enemy. And we don't invest excessive powers in the hands of one man for a fixed term thus we don't have to fantasize about one man who can save us from tyrrany.
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henry quirk
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 pm It is with a degree of anxiety that I envision the future of the US, and thereby the rest of the nations. I am neither being negative nor paranoid when I opine that saying unity does not create unity.

It is easy for the one side to call for unity—the anti-Trumpers, the pro-Bidens, the progressives, the Democrats et al—for to them unity means everyone should join them and their leftist way of thinking.

But for both the conservatives and the radicals on the right, unity means having thoughts and ideas, wants and wishes, goals and passions squelched. Because there’s a real possibility that their voices won’t be heard.

Healing is not going to just happen and it won’t be achieved in a matter of months. What to do, what to do?
pick a side...there are several
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henry quirk
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by henry quirk »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:43 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 pm and thereby the rest of the nations.
I don't normally like to promote nonsense discussions about American Exceptionalism, but there are significant differences here that mean you guys are largely in this particular fail-loop on your own, at least among functional rich world democracies. Here's a few off the top of my head...

1. No other country that I can think of has such an activist supreme court. We don't allow politicians to appoint judges, we don't permit them to interfere in that process in any way. The political affiliations of our judiciary are seldom an issue. When we need a new law it is written by parliament and applied by the fucking judges. Hardly any laws are struck down on constitutional grounds because we expect our parliaments to deal with constitutional issues prior to promulgation.

2. Only France has anything similar (actually a bit more overpowered) to an American executive president. Everywhere else we have Prime Ministers who can be booted from office at any time, have no powers of pardon, and rarely much by way of decree powers.

3. No other democracy is tied up in a two party system quite like yours. Even the UK, which has only had prime ministers from two parties in almost a century isn't a two party state. Most of Europe is ruled by coalitions as the norm.

4. No other nation would tolerate the sort of gerrymandering that is completely standard in the USA. The sheer notion of allowing politicians to redraw their electoral boundaries strikes every nation in Europe as quite insane. It's not uncommon for there to be electoral districts whose collective vote is knowable in advance of the election (I live in one) but you can't seriously hope to rule a nation on the basis of them. I remember one gerrymandering controversy in the UK, it was trivial in all honesty, some social housing was sold off because the local authority that owned it thought that owner occupiers would be more likely to vote for the right wing. It wasn outrage and the person held responsible was personally fined 12 million pounds (roughly 20 million dollars at the time).

5. Nobody else has such an immutable constitution - we aren't prisoners of laws written before the abolition of slavery when only one in ten could read and only men could vote. And if we have a disagreement about what one of our laws actually means, we don't hold a seance to find out what the ghost of the man who wrote it with a feather intended, we just clarify it with a new law.

6. We do have imbalances that make a rural vote slightly more valuable than an urban one, in Japan that is really very pronounced due to the electoral boundaries having been drawn up decades ago. And everywhere with first-past-the-post elections a plurality of votes is sadly sufficient to get a fairly hefty parliamentary majority. But we certainly wouldn't put up with an electoral college, I can't think of anywhere else that you can actually get less votes than another party and still hold the levers of power.

7. We don't shoot each other very much, and we don't worry very much about people trying to shoot us either.

8. Most of us don't mix religion and electoral politics very much. It's not unkown in Western Europe for a relgious sect to form a decisive voter bloc, but it's certainly rare, and they tend to be centre-right rather than completely fucking rabid.

Obviously Europe, Korea and Japan are all capable of large scale political corruption scandals, we do them a lot and very well too, we're not made out of different stuff to Americans. We are also just as susceptible to populism: borderline Nazis have gained significant political office in Sweden, Holland and Greece in recent years, and my own nation is fucking up that Brexit thing even worse than expected.

But we are all much less likely to end up having to make the sort of crazy last ditch defence of our basic political institutions that you guys have been doing recently because our political parties fracture instead of fighting eternal dirty civil wars, so we end up with the relevant number of parties for the times. And because we don't have to worry much that all our judges work for our enemy. And we don't invest excessive powers in the hands of one man for a fixed term thus we don't have to fantasize about one man who can save us from tyrrany.
good points, all
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:53 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:40 pm still think your a biaset ageinst solcilism, but let talk.
Not "biased," G. I just know what Socialism is, and what it has done historically.
I'm a 70's deocrat
That's a long while ago.
- i do not affirm "trickldown"

Nor does anybody. The term is a Leftist pejorative, not a description of an economic theory anybody seriously holds.
your views? on the "balance" bet gov and fre market?
My view would be that government is made up of people. And while some people can be trusted, a great many definitely cannot be. So government needs checks and balances on it, so as to prevent abuses. One good measure is frequent elections...elections with integrity, that is. Another is limited terms of office prior to re-election. Another is division of powers among different branches of government, so no person or body can make unchecked legislation.

I regard government as a necessary measure, but not necessarily a good one. For that reason, it should be kept as small as is possible, and should strictly be limited as to the areas where it is allowed to interfere. I have a strong belief in human rights, but also in freedoms and responsibilities. In any area where the private sector can function reasonably well, government has no business interfering. But justice is definitely a government concern, and legitimately so. Their relation to the economy is primarily that of preventing outright abuses and injustices, such as preventing monopolies, wage slaves or unjust discrimination. But they do not have a right to appropriate other people's property, except by consent. They have a legitimate role in things like civil order and national defence.

There's a lot more I could say. How's that for a starter summary?
i'm a libertarian so AFFRIM you view of power - it corrupts so keep gov power small. but unlike reichbugs i think the power of gobal corps should be small too. corruptio is corruption and when gov is weak and lets global copts to play gov - gov sells out it authority to the corps - result is the same.


yes there are Liberal Liberatrians - i am one.


per your post - fully agree. outside of term limits. i think there should not be any, and to leave that up to the electorate/


thnaks for reply (hows the weather in Toranto?) - I've not been here for a month and think it likely i'll everntually leave this forums. it offers too little for me.


but nice to hear from you Sir.
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:49 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm
He got you fair and square, you didn't distinguish between the issuing of orders vs suggestions, which is your fault.
what histroy books are you reading? which universe?
what the fuck are you on about you stupid drunk old bastard?
I'm all about Histroy whic is not per ones opinion which Terripin thinks - hthere is only one past/hitory.

asshole.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by FlashDangerpants »

gaffo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:59 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:49 am

what histroy books are you reading? which universe?
what the fuck are you on about you stupid drunk old bastard?
I'm all about Histroy whic is not per ones opinion which Terripin thinks - hthere is only one past/hitory.

asshole.
You're just drunk and confused and picking random fights about nothing.
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

UniversalAlien wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:14 pm Back to: "The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!"

And, If I'm understanding some of the previous debate - Is Donald Trump responsible :?:
- Should he be convicted in the upcoming impeachment trial :?:

My opinion is YES :!:

Not only was he instigating the situation for months by lying about election fraud which court after court
denied - There was no election fraud and he knew it !

But, and most important - When the actual violent storming of the Capitol began, he did nothing but watch, when he could immediately have conveyed his wishes for them to stop.

Later, he did finally tell them "we love you" but it's time to go home and eventually did condemn violence.

Being the 'Commander in Chief' and chief architect of the insurrection of the Capitol and failing to stop it when it became violent, he is guilty.
Exactly! Trump should have been convicted. but as usuall, the Republiccans were pussies afiad of his base.

I cCommend the 7 who voted to convict, esp Romnoy - whom i do not like so much - think he is a rich brat, but redeamed my view of him in the last impeachment and this one - voting the right way - so I'm willing to reasses my view of him.

and glad to see Sasse - who is the most conservative member of the senate......and who's philosphy is polar opposite of mine, but i think is a patriot and love our Constitution - and so voted the right way.

so ya may God bles those 7 REpublicans for voting thier concience (and haveing one too). fuck the other 43 of em. esp mitch mccollnel
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:04 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:59 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:08 am
what the fuck are you on about you stupid drunk old bastard?
I'm all about Histroy whic is not per ones opinion which Terripin thinks - hthere is only one past/hitory.

asshole.
You're just drunk and confused and picking random fights about nothing.
sure bubba, you are still an asshole, even when i'm a blind drunk loser - you still remain a asshhole

why the fuck did you insult me when i was talking to Terrapin - not your ass - you had to jump in and insult me for some reason - your lack of ccharacter no doubt.

i when you barge in unwelcome other members of this forum can read and see a conversation bet me and Terrapin - via you to insult me. i return the favor dick.


that is what you are - anyone here can read this thread and see you jump in uninvited bet ewm and tarripin - so ya puck you asshoel.

whats your problem?
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

I never start a fight - and in fact value friendship and understanding over vitriol, but i live be reciprocity - is some asshole inserts himself into othrs converstaion and then proceeds to insult me - i retrun the favor.


so ya fuck you Flash.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by FlashDangerpants »

gaffo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:22 am why the fuck did you insult me when i was talking to Terrapin - not your ass - you had to jump in and insult me for some reason - your lack of ccharacter no doubt.
I didn't, you stupid drunk old bastard. That's what you did. As you can see below, I was replying to Tererapin and it was nothing to do with you, then you started some irrelevant shit about history, which wasn't the subject under discussion.
gaffo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:49 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:49 pm

What happened to the "unless" part? Answers with nuance or qualifications aren't allowed?
He got you fair and square, you didn't distinguish between the issuing of orders vs suggestions, which is your fault.
what histroy books are you reading? which universe?

Now stop being a stupid drunk wanker at me.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:42 pm but nice to hear from you Sir.
And you, too.
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:04 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:22 am why the fuck did you insult me when i was talking to Terrapin - not your ass - you had to jump in and insult me for some reason - your lack of ccharacter no doubt.
I didn't, you stupid drunk old bastard. That's what you did. As you can see below, I was replying to Tererapin and it was nothing to do with you, then you started some irrelevant shit about history, which wasn't the subject under discussion.
gaffo wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:49 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:33 pm
He got you fair and square, you didn't distinguish between the issuing of orders vs suggestions, which is your fault.
what histroy books are you reading? which universe?

Now stop being a stupid drunk wanker at me.

Fair enough, i've not been her for a month, and read your post at to me instead of Yerrapin - i guess he and i are both old drunks, i know ia am, but your post was to him, and i was in error thinking it was to me.

I aapolligize to you Sir.

thnaks for carifing.
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:26 am
gaffo wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:42 pm but nice to hear from you Sir.
And you, too.
likewise totonto is what -15 or so (Farinhiet - not into celcious/centagrade)/
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:33 am likewise totonto is what -15 or so (Farinhiet - not into celcious/centagrade)/
I don't know...but it will be on the weather channel, if you want to check. :wink:
gaffo
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Re: The Capitol building is breached by the Retrumplicans NOW!

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:48 am
gaffo wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:33 am likewise totonto is what -15 or so (Farinhiet - not into celcious/centagrade)/
I don't know...but it will be on the weather channel, if you want to check. :wink:
lol ;-), ye I'll check the weather channel.
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