Progressive vs Platonic Education.

[Belinda]

Almost certainly there is innate knowledge of causality, and also the deep structure of language. There is no innate knowledge of good and evil when the good is defined as attachment to some ideology or other.

The best we can do regarding the teaching of the good, is to enable the growing child and the student to develop skills , judgement , and knowledge. One skill for living which I suspect Nick has never praised is the ability to doubt one's own wisdom.

[Nick_A]

Almost certainly there is innate knowledge of causality, and also the deep structure of language. There is no innate knowledge of good and evil when the good is defined as attachment to some ideology or other.

The best we can do regarding the teaching of the good, is to enable the growing child and the student to develop skills , judgement , and knowledge. One skill for living which I suspect Nick has never praised is the ability to doubt one's own wisdom.

Progressive education doesn't know what the form of the good is so invents its own producing all the horrors seen in the world today. Platonic education is the IMO futile attempt to make more than a small minority aware of what Plato called the form of the good is. But without striving for opening to the awareness of the form of the good, a human perspective is impossible and humanity is limited to subjective conceptions of what the Great Beast calls good.

But this is too dangerous to discuss. We've learned how the world hates this concept even on secular philosophy sites. So serious attempts to discuss the form of the good, what a human perspective is, and why humanity as a whole is ignorant of it can only be done in private. "Skills , judgement , and knowledge" must be limited to pleasing the Great Beast. Striving for a human perspective and knowledge of the form of the good doesn't please the Beast so it struggles against it. Knowledge of the form of the good and its importance must at all cost be kept out of progressive education as insulting to the Great Beast in its need to preserve cave life. Do not disturb a sleeping beast. There will be hell to pay

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

What are the possible public goals for educating our young? Do they further the concept of a free society and its belief in Plato's description of the Good or socialism and its belief in the State? Are they better reflected through progressive or Platonic education?

But these are mutually true.

[Age]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

[Walker]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

Are you an adult human being?

[Age]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

Are you an adult human being?

Would it matter either way?

If yes, HOW and WHY?

[Nick_A]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

You are right. Education means to draw out a quality of innate knowledge already there. This is the purpose of Platonic education as opposed to the goal of progressive education. But how can it be done? How can young minds who are capable of anamnesis remember with the whole of themselves what has been forgotten?

[Age]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

You are right. Education means to draw out a quality of innate knowledge already there. This is the purpose of Platonic education as opposed to the goal of progressive education. But how can it be done?

By observing and listening, and I mean Truly OBSERVING and Truly LISTENING.

And, to be even more controversial, to LISTEN with the 'eyes', and, to OBSERVE with the 'ears', as well.

How can young minds who are capable of anamnesis remember with the whole of themselves what has been forgotten?

There is NO such thing as "young minds". There is NO such thing, in fact, as "minds", themselves.

However, children, themselves, do NOT KNOW, consciously, who nor what 'they' are, YET, just like most adults, in the days when this was written, did NOT KNOW this consciously YET EITHER.

But once who and what the 'whole of themselves' ARE, EXACTLY, then this will NOT be forgotten.

Thee innate KNOWLEDGE within EVERY human being is NOT forgotten. It has just NOT YET 'come to the surface', as they say.

So, once human beings consciously learn and KNOW who and what they Truly ARE and thus learn and KNOW who and what thee True Self REALLY IS, then, as EVERY one Truly wants AND desires to be HEARD and ACCEPTED for who they Truly ARE, then, and only then, can they be, and thus this is when thee True potential can be drawn out. And, along with that drawing out comes out thee innate KNOWLEDGE also, which is ALREADY within us ALL, just waiting to be RELEASED, or REVEALED.

The quality of innate KNOWLEDGE, or this inner KNOWING, 'comes out' with the drawing out of the discovering and/or learning, understanding and KNOWING of thy True Self.

In other word, ALL is REVEALED with the drawing out of the True 'potential' AND 'quality' within 'us' ALL.

[Belinda]

The word 'education' once meant - to draw out.

I suggest that if 'you', adult human beings, just 'educated' children , and each other, that way, then it would not be to long before ALL human beings were living how they ALL want to, and are meant to, live. That is; In Peace, and in Harmony, with one another.

You are right. Education means to draw out a quality of innate knowledge already there. This is the purpose of Platonic education as opposed to the goal of progressive education. But how can it be done? How can young minds who are capable of anamnesis remember with the whole of themselves what has been forgotten?

It is one of the main skills of a good teacher to do so. There are several methods.

1 Use of language. The child is encouraged to use both explicit and expressive language. It is unfortunate that computers have made books less used however there are encouraging signs that more books are being bought and borrowed. Idioms include not only reading but also drama which can be impromptu and participatory, telling stories, inclusion of human interest and morality in video games, led discussions among peers.

2. Physical objects and the physical environment to stimulate interest and enthusiasm. I include sports and games as well as outdoor adventures and hands-on experiences.

3. Efforts to improve the homes of the children so they have space to do their homework in peace, adequate sleep and exercise, nice enough clothing, health care, proper food.

4. Moral education which depends much on use of language, so efforts are made to provide teaching materials that are age appropriate, and which include much participation by peer groups.

[Nick_A]

Age

By observing and listening, and I mean Truly OBSERVING and Truly LISTENING.

But who is capable of truly observing and truly listening? It is a very rare quality. It requires conscious attention What does it mean and why is it so rare if it Is so valuable? Have you ever noticed what the young Simone wanted to do; notice that things and beings exist?

."Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil

However, children, themselves, do NOT KNOW, consciously, who nor what 'they' are, YET, just like most adults, in the days when this was written, did NOT KNOW this consciously YET EITHER.

Socrates advocated “Know Thyself.”What does it mean and how could it become an essential part of education that now stresses indoctrination of progressive habits? You seem to be aware that something is wrong. Yoda Kazuaki wrote this for a doctoral thesis, He seems to have the right idea in the opening paragraph. Do you agree?

https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/do ... 6/D83776W5

The concern of this study is the loss of the meaning or purpose of education and the instrumental view of education as its corollary. Today, education is largely conceived of as a means to gain social and economic privilege. The overemphasis on school children's test scores and the accountability of teachers and schools is evidence that education has lost its proper meaning. In such a climate, we observe general unhappiness among teachers, school children, and their parents. Society as a whole seems to have given up on education, not only school education but also the very idea of educated human beings. There is an urgent need to reconsider what education is and what its purpose is. However, these questions—once being the primary concerns of philosophers of education are barely discussed today. I intend to energize the discourse of the aims of education by examining Simone Weil's thesis that the sole purpose of education is to nurture attention..........

Simone Weil's idea is that the sole purpose of education is to nurture attention; essential for Platonic education. If she is right, is it any surprise that education has lost its proper meaning? In such a climate, we observe general unhappiness among teachers, school children, and their parents. Can conscious attention become the purpose of education in the future or are teachers, students, and parents destined to become increasingly unhappy in a meaningless environment lacking a human perspective?

[Age]

Age

By observing and listening, and I mean Truly OBSERVING and Truly LISTENING.

But who is capable of truly observing and truly listening?

EVERY one is CAPABLE of this. In fact, EVERY child is born NATURALLY doing this.

But, unfortunately, because EVERY one of 'us' actually does this NATURALLY at birth, and because of the BELIEF-system combined with the ABILITY of the human brain to capture and store, 'that' what is HEARD and SEEN, 'we', human beings, can and do grow up ASSUMING and BELIEVING some 'things' that are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY False, Wrong, and/or Incorrect, which PREVENTS and STOPS 'us' from Truly LISTENING and OBSERVING later on.

It is a very rare quality.

It is so rare among adult human beings, in the days of when this is being written, that it has nearly been bred out completely from them, and so is on the brink of extinction with them.

However, and VERY LUCKILY, EVERY new born human baby is NATURALLY JUST, Truly LISTENING and Truly OBSERVING. And, because it is an innate ABILITY, which is ALWAYS available within EVERY one, then when learning just how IMPORTANT 'this' is, and the ramifications of NOT doing 'it', then we are ALL ABLE to return to our True, NATURAL Selves, which is just HIGHLY CURIOUS creatures with the ABILITY to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing.

It requires conscious attention.

Well just about EVERY thing human beings do requires conscious attention. But, just because some behaviors become habitual or done without necessarily being that Truly consciously aware of them being done, does NOT mean that 'conscious attention' is NOT needed at all.

Also, Truly LISTENING and Truly OBSERVING only takes just LISTENING and OBSERVING from a NON prejudiced perspective, which is NOT difficult and NOT impossible AT ALL. We, human beings, ALL started out this way, doing this. So, it is nothing more than 'just going back to our roots', as some say.

What does it mean and why is it so rare if it Is so valuable?

Are you asking, "What does 'it' mean if we are NOT Truly LISTENING and OBSERVING, if doing this is so valuable?"

If yes, then 'it' just means the EXACT SAME as when we ALLOW children to die of starvation just because we do NOT give them some nutrients/food. We are just NOT 'doing it'. Just because some 'thing' is valuable, does NOT mean that we actual do that 'thing'. For example, there is probably not much MORE valuable than CLEAN AIR and CLEAN WATER, that is; If human beings want to keep existing and living on earth. YET we do NOT do what is ACTUALLY NEEDED to keep thee AIR and the WATER that we NEED to live on CLEAN. In fact 'we', human beings, do the EXACT OPPOSITE as we DESTROY and POLLUTE these things. And, we do it for the completely UNNECESSARY and totally NON VALUABLE 'thing' we call "money".

So, what is Truly 'valuable' has absolutely NO bearing on 'us' when we are STUCK in our ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS.

WHY, Truly LISTENING and OBSERVING became so 'rare' when they are so 'valuable' is because 'we' REALLY are Truly INTELLIGENT beings, and the ABILITY of the brain to gather, store, and hold knowledge/information. That is; because we Truly are ABLE TO learn, understand, and REASON, literally, absolutely ANY and EVERY thing, we have, unfortunately and very sadly, been able to learn ALL of the WRONG behavior in Life, and REASON IT OUT as being acceptable or all right behavior, but only to our OWN 'selves'.

But, if you meant your question in or from another perspective, then just let me know. Like, for example, you might have just meant, 'Why does Truly LISTENING and OBSERVING 'mean'?" full stop. (And the rest of your question was a separate and other question.)

If so, then what does it 'mean' to Truly LISTEN and Truly OBSERVE is to NOT LOOK AT or HEAR "another" from ANY preconceived ideas or views. But to just Truly UNDERSTAND 'them' AND ACCEPT 'them' for who they Truly ARE. (Which is just the set of thoughts AND emotions, within that experiencing body.)

EVERY one started out just WANTING to be LISTENED TO and ACCEPTED for who they Truly WERE, anyway. So, for adults, individually and collectively, to Truly LISTEN TO and to Truly OBSERVE ALL of their collective children is REALLY NOT that to much to ask for, anyway.

Have you ever noticed what the young Simone wanted to do; notice that things and beings exist?

I have NOT noticed, specifically, what that one young human being, which you call "simone" here, wanted to do. But I have OBSERVED and NOTICED what ALL children WANT to do the EXACT SAME thing, and that is to LOOK and LEARN. They are ALL Truly VERY CURIOUS creatures and ALL wanting to discover, learn, AND understand. They ALL, literally, LOOK and OBSERVE from a 'wide-eyed', or Truly OPEN perspective. (And by the way one does NOT 'need' physical eyes to OBSERVE and SEE 'things'.)

Also, BEFORE that one you have labelled "simone" here wanted to "notice that things and beings exist", they WANTED to just LISTEN and OBSERVE, EXPERIENCE, 'things'. In fact, this is such a Truly NATURAL behavior that it is NOT even a 'want' but just a NATURAL part of 'being', a 'human being'.

EVERY very young human child just NATURALLY 'notices things'. This is because 'things' (and beings) are just NATURALLY existing in the EXACT SAME Existence, which they are ALL in.

."Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil

Attention may be the rarest form of generosity, but this is just mostly because adult human beings have far more "better" things to do than provide attention to other human beings, including their own children, they WANT and DESIRE to obtain MORE MONEY so that they can buy MORE THINGS, to fulfill and satisfy the HOLE left, by them NOT being given what they actually 'needed' and just 'wanted', which was just 'attention' when they were children. And, when I say 'attention' I mean the proper AND correct 'attention' which is received when one is being Truly LISTENED TO and Truly OBSERVED.

And, considering that EVERY behavior, besides the actions being done by the innately KNOWING body to get what it 'needs' in order to keep on living and surviving, ALL behaviors are just learned behaviors. Now, because ALL children, hitherto have NOT YET received the True and Proper 'attention' that they 'need' to live in a Truly Peaceful and Harmonious 'world', then they also have grown up NOT YET KNOWING how to provide the True and Proper undivided 'attention', which is 'needed' here.

To call 'human beings' "minds" is a PURE misnomer, and which will be found to be just about the biggest PRIME EXAMPLE of just HOW human beings FOOL and DECEIVE "themselves", which then comes back to the devil and God 'stories'. But, anyway, the PUREST FORM of GENEROSITY may well be providing undivided PROPER and CORRECT 'attention', but any kind of 'attention' is NOT given to "minds" but to human beings, themselves.

And, if there is NOT one human being in this philosophy forum who has NOT YET 'noticed' that 'things' AND 'beings' exist, then PLEASE come forward now.

I am NOT sure WHY that human being, labelled, "simone" here has NOT wanted ANY thing else, (which sounds very far fetched), but to receive the complete revelation that 'things' AND 'beings' exist?

All one has to do is just OBSERVE the 'world' around them through one or ANY of the five senses, then that will REVEAL that 'things' AND 'beings' EXIST.

Most very young children I have OBSERVED have ALREADY worked this out.

However, children, themselves, do NOT KNOW, consciously, who nor what 'they' are, YET, just like most adults, in the days when this was written, did NOT KNOW this consciously YET EITHER.

Socrates advocated “Know Thyself.

Is, to 'advocate' some 'thing' like; 'Know Thyself', ANY 'thing' the SAME as, ACTUALLY, 'Knowing Thy Self', (and/or the 'self' while we are at it?)

”What does it mean and how could it become an essential part of education that now stresses indoctrination of progressive habits?

The word 'progressive', just like ABSOLUTELY EVERY other word is in relation to some 'thing' else. So, if ANY 'system' is 'indoctrinating' ANY thing that 'progressively' leads to living in Peace and in Harmony with one another, then there is NO negative NOR wrong thing with this, is there?

To me, ANY and ALL 'progressive' habits that lead us to what 'we' ALL, essentially, Truly WANT and DESIRE, then all well and good.

What Truly LISTENING and Truly OBSERVING means IS that it is by doing this is what leads to discovering and/or learning and thus KNOWING Thy True Self, and the 'self'. And, how doing this is, and could be, an ESSENTIAL part of 'education', itself, is that ONCE one Knows Thy True Self, then they are ABLE to provide FULL and UNDIVIDED ATTENTION to "others", which helps in drawing out from 'them', thee True Self within 'them'.

ALL children, (EVERY one), just WANTS to be LISTENED TO, HEARD, RECOGNIZED, and ACCEPTED for who they Truly ARE. This DESIRE and WANT does NOT just diminish just because of 'age'.

So, when adult human beings FINALLY learn HOW to Truly LISTEN TO and Truly OBSERVE their off spring, then these adults will be NATURALLY drawing out thee True and FULL potential within EVERY body while at the same time NOTICING thee True Self, which is just what we ALL have ALWAYS innately been WANTING to be HEARD, LISTENED TO, RECOGNIZED, AND ACCEPTED.

You seem to be aware that something is wrong. Yoda Kazuaki wrote this for a doctoral thesis, He seems to have the right idea in the opening paragraph. Do you agree?

It is NOT there is something 'wrong', in and of itself.

This is because of HOW thee Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK. ALL of this ALL has just 'had to' progress this way.

Just like EVERY new born baby, after evolving for nine months, does NOT just with consciously KNOWING EVERY thing, ALREADY, so to do human beings, collectively, after evolving for REALLY just a relatively VERY SHORT PERIOD, do NOT just come hitherto, in those days when this was written, with consciously KNOWING EVERY thing, ALREADY, either.

Thee True and Right Knowledge in Life comes with and from progressively LEARNING what is Right and Wrong and what is True and False in Life through MISTAKES and EXPERIENCES.

https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/do ... 6/D83776W5

The concern of this study is the loss of the meaning or purpose of education and the instrumental view of education as its corollary. Today, education is largely conceived of as a means to gain social and economic privilege. The overemphasis on school children's test scores and the accountability of teachers and schools is evidence that education has lost its proper meaning. In such a climate, we observe general unhappiness among teachers, school children, and their parents. Society as a whole seems to have given up on education, not only school education but also the very idea of educated human beings. There is an urgent need to reconsider what education is and what its purpose is. However, these questions—once being the primary concerns of philosophers of education are barely discussed today. I intend to energize the discourse of the aims of education by examining Simone Weil's thesis that the sole purpose of education is to nurture attention..........

Simone Weil's idea is that the sole purpose of education is to nurture attention; essential for Platonic education. If she is right, is it any surprise that education has lost its proper meaning? In such a climate, we observe general unhappiness among teachers, school children, and their parents. Can conscious attention become the purpose of education in the future or are teachers, students, and parents destined to become increasingly unhappy in a meaningless environment lacking a human perspective?

If the word, 'education' once meant, and is to remain meaning, to draw out, then the sole purpose of 'education' is and would be to draw out. Now, if we are to take to draw out, to mean or refer to drawing out thee True Self and/or the True potential within, then the only True way I can SEE, for now, this being done properly AND correctly is through and by providing enough True and Right 'attention'.

But because NO adult has of YET, in the days of when this is being written, been given ENOUGH True and Right 'attention', "them" 'self', then LEARNING how to provide ENOUGH of the True and Right 'attention' to "others", which is what would be 'needed' here, is just some 'thing' that adults will have to patiently learn HOW to do.

So, if we Truly WANT TO 'nurture attention', itself, then by just starting to PAY REAL 'attention' to the younger ones of the species, and this is done by Truly LISTENING and Truly OBSERVING them, then what can be SEEN and OBSERVED Is that it is them that REALLY and Truly do ALREADY KNOW HOW to PAY the Right kind of 'attention'. Therefore, 'nurturing' 'attention', itself, is done through and by LEARNING from the EXPERTS, themselves. And what I have LEARNED from LISTENING TO and OBSERVING human beings, themselves, properly AND correctly, is that it is the younger of the species who I have LEARNED FAR MORE about what is Truly Right and Truly Wrong in Life.

I managed to obtain and gain this Knowledge by just Truly LISTENING and Truly OBSERVING them from a completely OPEN or Objective perspective, while all the time giving them all of my 'undivided attention', which, by the way, the 'right kind of attention' is just what 'love' is anyway.

However, 'you' or "others" might have a different perspective of what 'education' and/or 'to draw out' actually means, as well as completely different perspectives to ANY and/or ALL of what I have said here.

[Belinda]

All adults and all children have to be motivated to pay attention. Normal children enjoy paying attention when they are motivated to do so. It is a large part of a school teacher's work to motivate.

[Nick_A]

Age, I agree that the ability to impartially listen and observe has virtually atrophied in a great deal of humanity. It is natural for the loss of conscious attention. I should have explained the difference between conscious and captured attention.

As you suggest everything captures the attention especially of the young. This is animal attention and the same for animal life on earth. It is not our attention but rather the energy of attention moves through us and is a reaction to the impressions of the external world.

Conscious attention is the one thing we can call our own. We can consciously direct our attention. It is an action of free will rather than a reaction to stimuli. In progressive education captured education either makes learning a skill possible or can be used to indoctrinate ideas such as Hitler's Youth possible.

A good teacher in progressive education is one as Belinda suggests who motivates. But this motivation is a mixed blessing. Progressive education reflects the animal being of Man which can either favor compassion or degradation depending upon external influences. It is obvious when we see what is happening in American universities. It is the result of captured animal attention. Conscious attention has nothing to do with it.

Jesus said we need new eyes to see and ears to hear. How do we see and hear beyond our sensory limits? For Plato, animals are limited to the light of the sun connecting their eyes to what can be seen. For conscious man consciously aware of the intelligible world above the visible world, The light of our Source connects conscious Man with the forms. A person through conscious attention can become able through conscious contemplation to experience the visible world for what it is and lacking meaning and purpose for conscious man

.

"Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. It is given to very few minds to notice that things and beings exist. Since my childhood I have not wanted anything else but to receive the complete revelation of this before dying." ~Simone Weil

You didn't understand what she meant. We know things and beings exist but we don't understand it, we don't feel it. Knowing and understanding are not the same

Progressive education teaches how to know in the secular world while Platonic education teaches how to acquire universal understanding. Can a person whose animal attention has been captured graduate into conscious attention and the free will necessary to acquire a human perspective? Since the world is against it, we don't know.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

Progressive education teaches how to know in the secular world while Platonic education teaches how to acquire universal understanding.

Graduate teachers teach children how to find out facts, and how to form their own judgments. It doesn't matter what you mean by "progressive" and "Platonic".

It is better to learn facts before you adopt some theory.

[Nick_A]

Nick wrote:

Progressive education teaches how to know in the secular world while Platonic education teaches how to acquire universal understanding.

Graduate teachers teach children how to find out facts, and how to form their own judgments. It doesn't matter what you mean by "progressive" and "Platonic".

It is better to learn facts before you adopt some theory.

The crux of the problem. Science including graduate teachers teach facts but how do people experience objective values and distinguish them from subjective values? Do objective values initiate with the state and secular values or do they initiate from our Source?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html

Draft for a Statement of Human Obligation

Profession of Faith

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties.

Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world.

Another terrestrial manifestation of this reality lies in the absurd and insoluble contradictions which are always the terminus of human thought when it moves exclusively in this world.

Just as the reality of this world is the sole foundation of facts, so that other reality is the sole foundation of good.

That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations.

"At the centre of the human heart is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world."
Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men.

We agree that science is the source of facts. We disagree on the source of objective values. You are suggesting that they arise with humanity and I believe they are received in our hearts from above as objective conscience. A real question worthy of conscious contemplation.