Progressive vs Platonic Education.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:13 pm
Nick wrote:

Progressive education teaches how to know in the secular world while Platonic education teaches how to acquire universal understanding.

Belinda wrote:

Graduate teachers teach children how to find out facts, and how to form their own judgments. It doesn't matter what you mean by "progressive" and "Platonic".

It is better to learn facts before you adopt some theory.

(Belinda)
Nick wrote:

The crux of the problem. Science including graduate teachers teach facts but how do people experience objective values and distinguish them from subjective values? Do objective values initiate with the state and secular values or do they initiate from our Source?

Objective values are actually intersubjective values. You, Nick, believe your values originate in a Higher Source, however your belief has been acquired from your life in a society of people of whom Simone Weil has been one of your significant others.

Simone, in turn, acquired her values from her social milieu.

You may be correct, that Higher Source originates ideas in us good and true ideas. However you cannot be sure and it is better to live as if we men are alone in a wide and lonely universe. We do have great prophets and seers to help us navigate, but ultimately we each make our own choices as influenced by our significant others.
It is an error to idolise any significant other. Higher Source is not an other but pervades everything according to its unknown algorithm.

[Nick_A]

Nick wrote:
The crux of the problem. Science including graduate teachers teach facts but how do people experience objective values and distinguish them from subjective values? Do objective values initiate with the state and secular values or do they initiate from our Source?

Belinda replied: Objective values are actually intersubjective values. You, Nick, believe your values originate in a Higher Source, however your belief has been acquired from your life in a society of people of whom Simone Weil has been one of your significant others.

Simone, in turn, acquired her values from her social milieu.

You may be correct, that Higher Source originates ideas in us good and true ideas. However you cannot be sure and it is better to live as if we men are alone in a wide and lonely universe. We do have great prophets and seers to help us navigate, but ultimately we each make our own choices as influenced by our significant others.
It is an error to idolise any significant other. Higher Source is not an other but pervades everything according to its unknown algorithm.

Simone's beliefs came from early indoctrination which is why she was a highly regarded Marxist and admired by Leon Trotsky. However her dedication to experience truth made it necessary for her to acquire conscious attention. She died Christian mystic. She evolved from social indoctrination into human freedom from indoctrination. She is proof that it can be done.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:
The crux of the problem. Science including graduate teachers teach facts but how do people experience objective values and distinguish them from subjective values? Do objective values initiate with the state and secular values or do they initiate from our Source?

Belinda replied: Objective values are actually intersubjective values. You, Nick, believe your values originate in a Higher Source, however your belief has been acquired from your life in a society of people of whom Simone Weil has been one of your significant others.

Simone, in turn, acquired her values from her social milieu.

You may be correct, that Higher Source originates ideas in us good and true ideas. However you cannot be sure and it is better to live as if we men are alone in a wide and lonely universe. We do have great prophets and seers to help us navigate, but ultimately we each make our own choices as influenced by our significant others.
It is an error to idolise any significant other. Higher Source is not an other but pervades everything according to its unknown algorithm.

Simone's beliefs came from early indoctrination which is why she was a highly regarded Marxist and admired by Leon Trotsky. However her dedication to experience truth made it necessary for her to acquire conscious attention. She died Christian mystic. She evolved from social indoctrination into human freedom from indoctrination. She is proof that it can be done.

Yes, well if anyone was an original Simone was one.

[Nick_A]

What is the purpose of education? Is it to create automatons indoctrinated into service to the ideals of the Great Beast which progressive education furthers or to awaken individuals to objective universal obligations?

Does modern society destroy individuality or can a society become a means to consciously awaken a person to feel the attraction to objective human meaning and purpose. That is the goal of Platonic education?

This raises the question of what defines a conscious human individual as compared to an indoctrinated automaton?

[Belinda]

What is the purpose of education? Is it to create automatons indoctrinated into service to the ideals of the Great Beast which progressive education furthers or to awaken individuals to objective universal obligations?

Does modern society destroy individuality or can a society become a means to consciously awaken a person to feel the attraction to objective human meaning and purpose. That is the goal of Platonic education?

This raises the question of what defines a conscious human individual as compared to an indoctrinated automaton?

To ask 'the purpose of' is useless. You need first to ask "Who is it who purposes?"

Thus, Nazis purposed to indoctrinate Hitler youth to be good Nazis:

19th century schools in England purposed to teach children the 3 Rs so they could earn their livings in an industrialised society:

Medieval Xian monks were educated to further the glory of God and teach lay people about God.

Nurses are educated so they have empathy, quick clever hands, and basic medical knowledge of medical materials, anatomy, physiology, and so forth

[Nick_A]

What is the purpose of education? Is it to create automatons indoctrinated into service to the ideals of the Great Beast which progressive education furthers or to awaken individuals to objective universal obligations?

Does modern society destroy individuality or can a society become a means to consciously awaken a person to feel the attraction to objective human meaning and purpose. That is the goal of Platonic education?

This raises the question of what defines a conscious human individual as compared to an indoctrinated automaton?

To ask 'the purpose of' is useless. You need first to ask "Who is it who purposes?"

Thus, Nazis purposed to indoctrinate Hitler youth to be good Nazis:

19th century schools in England purposed to teach children the 3 Rs so they could earn their livings in an industrialised society:

Medieval Xian monks were educated to further the glory of God and teach lay people about God.

Nurses are educated so they have empathy, quick clever hands, and basic medical knowledge of medical materials, anatomy, physiology, and so forth

All of what you've mentioned is in service to the various goals of the great beast. But what of the awakened goals of potential individuals? They receive awareness of it through objective conscience

"The combination of these two facts — the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it — constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality.

Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes also that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect.

This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings. Whatever formulation of belief or disbelief a man may choose to make, if his heart inclines him to feel this respect, then he in fact also recognizes a reality other than this world's reality. Whoever in fact does not feel this respect is alien to that other reality also." ~ Simone Weil

Platonic education has the goal of inwardly turning the whole self around to face the light rather than obsessing with the shadows on the wall. Only when when a person turns towards the light can they receive awareness of respect for life as a whole and the human obligations towards it.

Progressive education has the goal of adjusting to the relativity of the shadows.

[Belinda]

Progressive education has the goal of adjusting to the relativity of the shadows.

That is true enough. This is a relative world we live in like it or not. Who are you,who is any man, to believe he knows absolute reality? To believe you know absolute reality is vain beyond any other sort or vanity.
If you want to follow Christ you follow Him like an ordinary man not like one of God's angels.

You mistake Plato's meaning regarding The Cave. That allegory is to increase man's humility, not make him aim to be a philosopher king.

[Nick_A]

Progressive education has the goal of adjusting to the relativity of the shadows.

That is true enough. This is a relative world we live in like it or not. Who are you,who is any man, to believe he knows absolute reality? To believe you know absolute reality is vain beyond any other sort or vanity.
If you want to follow Christ you follow Him like an ordinary man not like one of God's angels.

You mistake Plato's meaning regarding The Cave. That allegory is to increase man's humility, not make him aim to be a philosopher king.

Socrates did say: "I know nothing." It is cruel to say it if there isn't a path to experience the verticality of objective knowledge. It requires inwardly turning towards the light which progressive education denies.

Plato's cave begins with the recognition of our hypocrisy inviting us to inwardly turn towards the light to experience the way out of the cave.

Have some found the way out of the Cave? Simone Weil wrote

"I did not mind having no visible successes, but what did grieve me was the idea of being excluded from that transcendent kingdom to which only the truly great have access and wherein truth abides."

Does conscious humanity exist? Are their people who as a result of Platonic education inwardly turned towards the light so now pursue becoming one with truth rather than justification? A person can only find out for themselves.

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

Socrates did say: "I know nothing." It is cruel to say it if there isn't a path to experience the verticality of objective knowledge.

Certainly is it cruel. Welcome to this vale of tears!

[Nick_A]

Nick wrote:

Socrates did say: "I know nothing." It is cruel to say it if there isn't a path to experience the verticality of objective knowledge.

Certainly is it cruel. Welcome to this vale of tears!

It is only cruel if there is no way out from the prison of Plato's cave. Progressive education teaches how to adjust to life in Plato's cave. Platonic education teaches how to acquire a human perspective and freedom from the cave.

[Belinda]

What is the purpose of education? Is it to create automatons indoctrinated into service to the ideals of the Great Beast which progressive education furthers or to awaken individuals to objective universal obligations?

Does modern society destroy individuality or can a society become a means to consciously awaken a person to feel the attraction to objective human meaning and purpose. That is the goal of Platonic education?

This raises the question of what defines a conscious human individual as compared to an indoctrinated automaton?

To ask 'the purpose of' is useless. You need first to ask "Who is it who purposes?"

Thus, Nazis purposed to indoctrinate Hitler youth to be good Nazis:

19th century schools in England purposed to teach children the 3 Rs so they could earn their livings in an industrialised society:

Medieval Xian monks were educated to further the glory of God and teach lay people about God.

Nurses are educated so they have empathy, quick clever hands, and basic medical knowledge of medical materials, anatomy, physiology, and so forth

All of what you've mentioned is in service to the various goals of the great beast. But what of the awakened goals of potential individuals? They receive awareness of it through objective conscience

"The combination of these two facts — the longing in the depth of the heart for absolute good, and the power, though only latent, of directing attention and love to a reality beyond the world and of receiving good from it — constitutes a link which attaches every man without exception to that other reality.

Whoever recognizes that reality recognizes also that link. Because of it, he holds every human being without any exception as something sacred to which he is bound to show respect.

This is the only possible motive for universal respect towards all human beings. Whatever formulation of belief or disbelief a man may choose to make, if his heart inclines him to feel this respect, then he in fact also recognizes a reality other than this world's reality. Whoever in fact does not feel this respect is alien to that other reality also." ~ Simone Weil

Platonic education has the goal of inwardly turning the whole self around to face the light rather than obsessing with the shadows on the wall. Only when when a person turns towards the light can they receive awareness of respect for life as a whole and the human obligations towards it.

Progressive education has the goal of adjusting to the relativity of the shadows.

True, besides purposes that are legitimated by society, there are individuals' purposes. And these may be and frequently are discordant.

Do you recommend a method for me to find the best possible purpose for myself?

[Terrapin Station]

In my view, the goal of education should be to foster success, authenticity, and fulfillment in life, preparing kids for all three with respect to employment, their personal lives, their social/cultural lives, their intellectual lives, etc.

[Nick_A]

Belinda

Do you recommend a method for me to find the best possible purpose for myself?

Terrapin Station

In my view, the goal of education should be to foster success, authenticity, and fulfillment in life

For those with A goal for their lives, they must decide if their aim in life is for maximum pleasure or the need for truth

Jacob Needleman raised this question in his book: “Lost Christianity”

Of course it had been stupid of me to express it in quite that way, but nevertheless the point was worth pondering: does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure?

For most the aim of maximum pleasure without hurting anyone is a good and normal aim. However Platonic education suggests that the tripartite soul is out of balance making the pursuit of truth impossible since we don't know what it is. If a person becomes disappointed with the pursuit of pleasure and is drawn to experience the objective truth of human purpose and meaning, then the aim of education is to balance the tripartite soul in pursuit of truth and a human perspective at the expense of the drive for pleasure.

Step one is to answer Prof. Needleman’s question:: does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure? Does it exist in us enough to pursue it?

[Nick_A]

"even if we can't prevent the forces of tyranny from prevailing, we can at least "understand the force by which we are crushed." Simone Weil

Is life in Plato's cave the future for humanity? Do our current concepts of education lead to freedom or perpetual cave life?

Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.

OK, so teachers in modern Progressive education follow the dictates of the Great Beast to adjust to cave life but without any awareness of what is necessary to get out of the cave. They define intelligence in terms of cave life or the prison of Plato's cave. Intelligent men like Socrates would have to be killed to protect the prison.

"The difference between more or less intelligent men is like the difference between criminals condemned to life imprisonment in smaller or larger cells. The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like a condemned man who is proud of his large cell. Simone Weil

If only a relative few have realized the way out of the cave and they will be shouted down and/or killed, can their influence be sufficient for humanity as a whole to escape prison life since we have forgotten what freedom from cave life is? Can it be remembered?

[Belinda]

Nick wrote:

Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.
OK, so teachers in modern Progressive education follow the dictates of the Great Beast to adjust to cave life but without any awareness of what is necessary to get out of the cave. They define intelligence in terms of cave life or the prison of Plato's cave. Intelligent men like Socrates would have to be killed to protect the prison.

It is to be lamented when this happens, as it too often does.
The best teachers are aware of what it takes to see beyond cultural beliefs and practices. The best teachers are aware of what it takes to be insightful, and to have sympathy and empathy.
The main thing is the relationship between teacher and pupil, as everyone child or adult, who learns from someone else learns not in a vacuum but in a social situation.