Progressive vs Platonic Education.

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

What are the possible public goals for educating our young? Do they further the concept of a free society and its belief in Plato's description of the Good or socialism and its belief in the State? Are they better reflected through progressive or Platonic education?

One of the main objectives for progressive education is to educate the “whole child”—that is, to attend to physical and emotional, as well as intellectual, growth. The school was conceived of as a laboratory in which the child was to take an active part—learning through doing. The theory was that a child learns best by actually performing tasks associated with learning.

The goal of education according to Plato is to turn the soul towards the light.and how the soul can most easily and effectively be made to do it. It isn’t the craft of putting sight into the soul. Education takes for granted that sight is there but that it isn’t turned the right way or looking where it ought to look, and it tries to redirect it appropriately.”

Now this is basic but What I’m trying to show is how progressive education lends itself to indoctrination since the soul or the human essence is focused on the shadows on the wall in Plato’s cave.

Both progressive and Platonic education are aimed at the whole child. The difference is that Platonic education is aware of the importance of turning towards the light (the good) while progressive education is concerned with the ability to serve the subjective goals of the state. Has anyone on this forum studied Plato’s concerns for education and how turning towards the light through education becomes possible.
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Progressive education of the whole child has as its purpose creating good citizens in service to the state. The good is defined by the state.

Platonic education has its ideals opening the student to experience the forms or the expressions of the GOOD.

Man can experience visual facts existing below Plato's divided line and the potential to experience objective values existing as facts above the line. The sun gives the light necessary for the eye to see an object. the eye of the soul becomes aware of the values in the intelligible realm by the light of the GOOD. the soul becomes attracted to the light of the good much light a moth is attracted to the light of the sun.

The purpose of Education is to see beyond the visible into the intelligible to grasp the eternal concepts; the forms unified as One in the GOOD. The educated man IMO is one who has grasped the facts of science and puts them within the eternal values of the GOOD.

Is the purpose of education to develop and sustain the subjective values of the state created in the darkness of Plato's cave or to discover the eternal values beyond the visible created by our source so Man can experience the GOOD and become himself?
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

Nick, do you think this model is good for young minds and could meet the aims of education as you see them?

https://brockwood.org.uk

Or, does such a model require the presence of an enlightened teacher to stay the course and if it does, without the body present is the teacher’s spirit and memory a sufficient presence to continue the ideal?

I think that when determining the ideal, material costs along with the availability of worthy teachers and students should not be a consideration, that comes only after the ideal is identified.

As with the great experiment of the United States, the ideal is fragile.

(Ever see the movie, the X-Men?)
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:55 pm Nick, do you think this model is good for young minds and could meet the aims of education as you see them?

https://brockwood.org.uk

Or, does such a model require the presence of an enlightened teacher to stay the course and if it does, without the body present is the teacher’s spirit and memory a sufficient presence to continue the ideal?

I think that when determining the ideal, material costs along with the availability of worthy teachers and students should not be a consideration, that comes only after the ideal is identified.

As with the great experiment of the United States, the ideal is fragile.

(Ever see the movie, the X-Men?)
“Those who don't know must learn from those who do.” ― Plato, The Republic
That's the problem. How many teachers can look up and receive from above? If they don't know how, what is the value of what they teach? Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to relax the mind and become open. But what gradually fills the mind after it is taught to relax? Plato stresses the importance of opening to the Forms as the beginning of knowledge. I don't sense this with Krishnamurti

No I never saw the X-men
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to question your every assumption.

The school for X-Men children looks like the Brockwood school model.
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:44 pm Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to question your every assumption.

The school for X-Men children looks like the Brockwood school model.
I admit that I am the Wretched Man as described by St Paul. But how does the Wretched Man in opposition with himself reconcile the facts of science with the values originating with the GOOD as described by Plato?

If humanity is unable to reconcile the facts of science with the objective universal values originating with the GOOD for the purpose of understanding human objective purpose, I am afraid the future for humanity is not very promising. How would Krishnamurti answer this question of facts and values if a student brought it up?
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:09 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:44 pm Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to question your every assumption.

The school for X-Men children looks like the Brockwood school model.
I admit that I am the Wretched Man as described by St Paul. But how does the Wretched Man in opposition with himself reconcile the facts of science with the values originating with the GOOD as described by Plato?

If humanity is unable to reconcile the facts of science with the objective universal values originating with the GOOD for the purpose of understanding human objective purpose, I am afraid the future for humanity is not very promising. How would Krishnamurti answer this question of facts and values if a student brought it up?
He focused on the individual human more than conceptual humanity.

It's more the philosophy of everyone sweeping their own step, and the universe of steps becomes clean.

“The individual is of first importance, not the system; and as long as the individual does not understand the total process of himself, no system, whether of the left or the right, can bring order and peace to the world.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, Education and Significance of Life
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:44 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:09 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:44 pm Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to question your every assumption.

The school for X-Men children looks like the Brockwood school model.
I admit that I am the Wretched Man as described by St Paul. But how does the Wretched Man in opposition with himself reconcile the facts of science with the values originating with the GOOD as described by Plato?

If humanity is unable to reconcile the facts of science with the objective universal values originating with the GOOD for the purpose of understanding human objective purpose, I am afraid the future for humanity is not very promising. How would Krishnamurti answer this question of facts and values if a student brought it up?
He focused on the individual human more than conceptual humanity.

It's more the philosophy of everyone sweeping their own step, and the universe of steps becomes clean.

“The individual is of first importance, not the system; and as long as the individual does not understand the total process of himself, no system, whether of the left or the right, can bring order and peace to the world.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, Education and Significance of Life
I can appreciate the significance of human life in comparison to animal life from what I've learned from Plato and esoteric Christianity. How does Krishnamurti explain the significance or the value of Man on earth?
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:19 am
Walker wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:44 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:09 pm

I admit that I am the Wretched Man as described by St Paul. But how does the Wretched Man in opposition with himself reconcile the facts of science with the values originating with the GOOD as described by Plato?

If humanity is unable to reconcile the facts of science with the objective universal values originating with the GOOD for the purpose of understanding human objective purpose, I am afraid the future for humanity is not very promising. How would Krishnamurti answer this question of facts and values if a student brought it up?
He focused on the individual human more than conceptual humanity.

It's more the philosophy of everyone sweeping their own step, and the universe of steps becomes clean.

“The individual is of first importance, not the system; and as long as the individual does not understand the total process of himself, no system, whether of the left or the right, can bring order and peace to the world.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, Education and Significance of Life
I can appreciate the significance of human life in comparison to animal life from what I've learned from Plato and esoteric Christianity. How does Krishnamurti explain the significance or the value of Man on earth?
Because of his focus on the individual, he speaks only for himself in regarding, "humanity."

“As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti, 1929, The Truth Is A Pathless Land
https://jkrishnamurti.org/about-dissolution-speech

I recommend the link to his speech, which is a statement of intent for his life, when he was young.

*

Here, he defines freedom.
https://jkrishnamurti.org/about-core-teachings
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:44 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:09 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:44 pm Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches how to question your every assumption.

The school for X-Men children looks like the Brockwood school model.
I admit that I am the Wretched Man as described by St Paul. But how does the Wretched Man in opposition with himself reconcile the facts of science with the values originating with the GOOD as described by Plato?

If humanity is unable to reconcile the facts of science with the objective universal values originating with the GOOD for the purpose of understanding human objective purpose, I am afraid the future for humanity is not very promising. How would Krishnamurti answer this question of facts and values if a student brought it up?
He focused on the individual human more than conceptual humanity.

It's more the philosophy of everyone sweeping their own step, and the universe of steps becomes clean.

“The individual is of first importance, not the system; and as long as the individual does not understand the total process of himself, no system, whether of the left or the right, can bring order and peace to the world.”
- Jiddu Krishnamurti, Total Freedom, Education and Significance of Life
“[Education] isn’t the craft of putting sight into the soul. Education takes for granted that sight is there but that it isn’t turned the right way or looking where it ought to look, and it tries to redirect it appropriately.” - The Republic, Book VII

So how does the individual understand until the soul haw internally turned around?
I've written many times on the importance of detachment and freedom from the domination of opinions. Obviously Krishnmurti also did
'We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain. “You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."
But analysis is futile until the seed of the soul inwardly turns around to face the light. In Christianity this inner turning is called metanoia or being born from above.

Detachment from imagination is important. But to avoid the chief organizer from organizing a piece of the truth, the soul must be turned in the right direction. Platonic education has inner turning as its primary goal. I know it is not for progressive education which the state denies and not sure how Krishnamurti understood metanoia
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

”Man cannot come to it (truth) through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.”
- J. Krishnamurti

Neither through words.
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:01 am ”Man cannot come to it (truth) through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.”
- J. Krishnamurti

Neither through words.
It depends on the words. If it is the usual cave talk then it leads to cave opinions. However if it is sacred scripture originating with one who has knowledge, then it can lead to the experience of anamnesis or remembrance as described by Plato.

From wiki
The idea is that humans possess innate knowledge (perhaps acquired before birth) and that learning consists of rediscovering that knowledge from within.

In Meno, Plato's character (and old teacher) Socrates is challenged by Meno with what has become known as the sophistic paradox, or the paradox of knowledge:

Meno: And how are you going to search for [the nature of virtue] when you don't know at all what it is, Socrates? Which of all the things you don't know will you set up as target for your search? And even if you actually come across it, how will you know that it is that thing which you don't know?[1]

In other words, one who knows none of the attributes, properties, and/or other descriptive markers of any kind that help signify what something is (physical or otherwise) will not recognize it even after coming across it. Therefore, if the converse is true, and one knows the attributes, properties and/or other descriptive markers of this thing, one should not need to seek it out at all. The conclusion is that in either instance, there is no point trying to gain that "something"; in the case of Plato's aforementioned work, there is no point in seeking knowledge.
Krishnamurti supports anmnesis but without mentioning the qualities within scripture that support remembering what has been forgotten. Of course progressive education denies remembrance so the needs of the student to experience anamnesis is prevented in favor of indoctrination into local secular opinions.
Walker
Posts: 8700
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Walker »

No fudging. Words are thoughts, words are intellectual analysis, and JK doesn’t mention exceptions.

Quite the paradox, knowing without words, or intellectual analysis, or introspective dissection. The paradox is like what happens when trying real hard to master a skill. After a good while of verking really hard, trying hard, plateauing and climbing the next summit to the next plateau of understanding, the try falls away and the skill becomes effortless. Same with life. Folks try real hard to master life, reading the self-help books, taking advice from here and there, getting therapy, taking medications, sometimes doing things that no one would choose to do, then after it sinks into the noggin that the race is for the finish line, Life becomes effortless ever-after, although not necessarily comfortable or rewarding in the eyes of every witness.
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:00 pm No fudging. Words are thoughts, words are intellectual analysis, and JK doesn’t mention exceptions.

Quite the paradox, knowing without words, or intellectual analysis, or introspective dissection. The paradox is like what happens when trying real hard to master a skill. After a good while of verking really hard, trying hard, plateauing and climbing the next summit to the next plateau of understanding, the try falls away and the skill becomes effortless. Same with life. Folks try real hard to master life, reading the self-help books, taking advice from here and there, getting therapy, taking medications, sometimes doing things that no one would choose to do, then after it sinks into the noggin that the race is for the finish line, Life becomes effortless ever-after, although not necessarily comfortable or rewarding in the eyes of every witness.
“When a contradiction is impossible to resolve except by a lie, then we know that it is really a door.” ― Simone Weil

Krishnamurti doesn't answer my essential question which I believe in 50 years will be an essential question for both science and religion. It will eventually prove them as complimentary pursuits of the truth of human meaning and purpose. This essential question is: What is the purpose of our universe and the purpose of Man within it.

We can deny the contradiction by refusing to think or we can experience the contradiction through conscious contemplation hopefully leading to Man's highest form of reason called noesis. It is the means to go through the door. If I want to experience the purpose of our universe and Man's purpose within it, I must transcend literal thought and enter the practice of conscious contemplation where sometimes these truths are remembered.
Nick_A
Posts: 5571
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Progressive vs Platonic Education.

Post by Nick_A »

The ability to learn and to know is innate in humans, not a skill we have to teach. Rather than “putting knowledge in the soul like sight into blind eyes,” teachers are more like evangelists, pointing people to the light we’ve received. Plato says we stand in need of conversion before we can perceive the truth, and thus he was more right than he knew. Eric Voegelin summed up Plato’s vision of education as “the art of periagoge, of turning around,” that is, of repentance.

Without the willingness to admit fault, admit lack, admit you might be wrong, admit you don’t know it all, you can’t receive truth. You aren’t even turned toward truth. A humble turning must be an indispensable part of the learning process.

One of Plato’s applications of his allegory was also to point out the duty of those who have seen, known, experienced truth. They bear a responsibility not to stay forever transfixed in realms of light and glory (no perpetual students or ivory towers here), but rather to return to the cave and attempt to free others, though he will often be rejected and scorned. Though he would be personally happier to remain in pure contemplation, his love of truth is required in active service in his community for the society to be happier.
The aim of Platonic education is for the student to experience truth and the forms only possible for the balanced Man. The aim of progressive education is indoctrination into acceptable lies supporting the state.

Platonic education requires teachers who have inwardly turned towards the light. Progressive education only requires those willing to go by the book to support the education bureaucracy
Post Reply