Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Iwannaplato »

Pretty much any school I went to or visited restricted freedom of expression in unnecessary ways. Rational, calmly presented criticism of school policy, things presented in history books, a teacher's insulting attitude, US foreign policy and so on could not only be punished and silenced by the individual teacher, but generally this would be backed up by the admin. Freedom of expression and the right to free speech can include things that would necessarily be disruptive to a classroom. But to help children learn how to have their own opinions and to be able to express these, a great deal more freedom needs to be respected. Teachers and administrators need to notice that they have little tolerance for a diversity of ideas on many topics. Sometimes they do not even allow questioning of the reasonableness of certain things. They also need to learn the difference between intellectual challenge and exploration and setting fire to your desk. It's a very tough profession. I know that. But if the first 18 years of your civic life train you that you should not critique, question, and challenge ideas that authority figures tell you, you are not well trained to be a citizen. Who cares if you can name the dates all US wars began and the Presidents.
Gary Childress
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:40 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:34 pm Unless it was a private school, then it's a state agency and therefore a component of the state.
Totally incidental.

Whether the school was funded privately or by the State, she could -- and should -- expect that exactly the same thing would have happened. It was the reasonable response to her folly, whether by her peers, by some private institution, by an employer, or by a public school. She got exactly what she was sucking around to get.

Think of it this way, Gary. If I were to insult you, would you have a right to react? And if I were your coworker and publicly defamed our employer, would he have a right to penalize me or even fire me? And if you did react, or I did get sanctioned or fired, would I have any justification in whining that I was being treated unfairly? No. I called for it, and I got it, right?

As for her parents, if they were good ones, then what they'd say to her is, "That'll larn ya, darlin'." And she would not do it again.
OK. Fair points.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:50 pm OK. Fair points.
Well, all I'm saying, Gary, is that while free speech is an unalienable right for adults, it's a progressively-acquired right for children, because children are not born knowing how to use it in their own best interests or in the interests of getting good things done. They have to learn how that works, so they can maximize the utility of their freedom when they are older. And one of the key lessons that they need to learn is simply that the freedom to speak is powerful: it's capable of provoking reactions, and that may mean that other people use their free speech to rebuff you for using yours, or it may even mean that you make people decide they don't want to deal with you anymore.

Those are not evil things, but rather, they are natural consequences of one's use of the power to speak. And so long as an adult is happy to accept the consequences, an adult can speak freely. But one thing children really need to learn about that is that if they DO use their free speech to harm, deceive or offend others, then they cannot expect there will be no reaction, no consequences. There will be. That's life. We live in societies, and what we say in the public forum is reacted to by others.

So we need to be wise about when we speak, to whom, and in what way, if we want to see the consequences we desire come about, and not see the consequences we don't desire come about. Every kid needs to learn that.

But all of that does not at all undermine the adult right to free speech. In fact, it teaches children about the uses of free speech.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Didn't you know that teachers don't teach any more? They tell children to google and do their own 'research'.
Teachers are far too busy looking for worthy causes to hone their social-engineering (and social media) skills with to bother about mundane things like education.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:29 pm Didn't you know that teachers don't teach any more?
I've met a lot of them. Some do, some don't.

You're definitely right that those who teach according to the demands of the public curricula are no longer teaching things like logic, critical thinking, evidentiary standards, objective facts, and any reasonable amount of history; and that they are also overwhelmingly preoccupied with politically correct nonsense. That's totally true, especially in the public system, but now also in the private system, in some places.

On the other hand, there are good teachers quietly going about their business, trying to teach these sorts of basic classical liberal skills to students, in spite of the system. But you won't hear much about those teachers, because they have to work "underground," so to speak, keeping themselves off the radar of administrators and political activists, and just doing a good job anyway. If they get caught at it, they might get reprimanded, for failing to uphold the latest dogma from the ministry of education. So they have to keep their heads down.

They have a secret mantra that they only say to each other. It goes, "Close your door, and do the right thing." But there are still a good number of teachers who practice that. So we must be careful not to lump them in with the much more visible ideological idiots. They're trying their best, getting little credit and no support from administration. Even parents rarely know they exist, because the kids don't really understand that the teacher who asks nothing but ideological repetition from them, and yet gives high marks for conformity, is not the good one -- the good one is the one who makes actual demands of the kids, gives challenging tasks to them, insists on high-quality content, and pushes them to take responsibility for their learning.

All that being said, there seem to be fewer of the good ones all the time.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:04 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:29 pm Didn't you know that teachers don't teach any more?
I've met a lot of them. Some do, some don't.

You're definitely right that those who teach according to the demands of the public curricula are no longer teaching things like logic, critical thinking, evidentiary standards, objective facts, and any reasonable amount of history; and that they are also overwhelmingly preoccupied with politically correct nonsense. That's totally true, especially in the public system, but now also in the private system, in some places.

On the other hand, there are good teachers quietly going about their business, trying to teach these sorts of basic classical liberal skills to students, in spite of the system. But you won't hear much about those teachers, because they have to work "underground," so to speak, keeping themselves off the radar of administrators and political activists, and just doing a good job anyway. If they get caught at it, they might get reprimanded, for failing to uphold the latest dogma from the ministry of education. So they have to keep their heads down.

They have a secret mantra that they only say to each other. It goes, "Close your door, and do the right thing." But there are still a good number of teachers who practice that. So we must be careful not to lump them in with the much more visible ideological idiots. They're trying their best, getting little credit and no support from administration. Even parents rarely know they exist, because the kids don't really understand that the teacher who asks nothing but ideological repetition from them, and yet gives high marks for conformity, is not the good one -- the good one is the one who makes actual demands of the kids, gives challenging tasks to them, insists on high-quality content, and pushes them to take responsibility for their learning.

All that being said, there seem to be fewer of the good ones all the time.
Not in public schools here they don't. It's called 'child-led teaching/learning', implented in the 1990s, and has resulted in a disastrously undereducated younger population.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:51 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:04 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:29 pm Didn't you know that teachers don't teach any more?
I've met a lot of them. Some do, some don't.
Not in public schools here they don't. It's called 'child-led teaching/learning' and his resulted in a disastrously undereducated younger population.
Yes, there are some real teachers still left in public schools too.

I think the term you're looking for is "student-centred learning," actually.

Like all educational ideas, it has good and bad sides. But I think there are worse things than SCL in the schools...in fact, I know there are. And SCL, if done right, just means that teachers focus more intently on the identity and learning needs of their learners, taking some information from the students instead of simply imposing their own demands...not entirely a bad attitude for teachers to take, for sure. But at its worst, it amounts to surrendering the whole curriculum to those least able to know what it should be, and that's the down side of it. Maybe that abuse is what you're reacting to?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:56 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:51 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:04 am
I've met a lot of them. Some do, some don't.
Not in public schools here they don't. It's called 'child-led teaching/learning' and his resulted in a disastrously undereducated younger population.
Yes, there are some real teachers still left in public schools too.

I think the term you're looking for is "student-centred learning," actually.

Like all educational ideas, it has good and bad sides. But I think there are worse things than SCL in the schools...in fact, I know there are. And SCL, if done right, just means that teachers focus more intently on the identity and learning needs of their learners, taking some information from the students instead of simply imposing their own demands...not entirely a bad attitude for teachers to take, for sure. But at its worst, it amounts to surrendering the whole curriculum to those least able to know what it should be, and that's the down side of it. Maybe that abuse is what you're reacting to?
They have to follow the curriculum and if it says it must be 'CHILD-led' then that's what they have to do. Are you a school teacher?

And school children are NOT students! That's more American bullshit.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:04 am They have to follow the curriculum and if it says it must be 'CHILD-led' then that's what they have to do.
That's why the term "student-centred" is preferred. It's not letting the child lead, per se, but rather (at its best) is about beginning with the child instead of with the curricula.

It means that instead of the teacher starting with, "What stuff have I got that I want to drill into these kids' heads," the teacher starts with, "Who have I got, what do they know already, and what is their next step?" And if that's all it ever amounted to, I think we'd all agree it's a good idea.

Unfortunately, as you point out, that's not all SCL means. And that's not where it stops.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:12 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:04 am They have to follow the curriculum and if it says it must be 'CHILD-led' then that's what they have to do.
That's why the term "student-centred" is preferred. It's not letting the child lead, per se, but rather (at its best) is about beginning with the child instead of with the curricula.

It means that instead of the teacher starting with, "What stuff have I got that I want to drill into these kids' heads," the teacher starts with, "Who have I got, what do they know already, and what is their next step?" And if that's all it ever amounted to, I think we'd all agree it's a good idea.

Unfortunately, as you point out, that's not all SCL means. And that's not where it stops.
Fuck off if you can't read.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Schools vs. Freedom of Expression

Post by Immanuel Can »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:18 am Fuck off if you can't read.
I'm just telling you the truth...whether you want to hear it or not, that's up to you.

I'll leave you to it, then.
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