the limits of fascism

[Immanuel Can]

One of the despicable things about Christians is that they cannot even grant non-believers peace.

Isaiah 48:22. “There is no peace for the wicked,” says the Lord."

Then in what sense is the Lord merciful?

Luke 1:50

"His mercy is to generation after generation
Toward those who revere Him."

Is there a version of democracy you would advocate?

Yes.

Are you going to answer me about Brexit?

[tillingborn]

"His mercy is to generation after generation
Toward those who revere Him."

Do the people in Hell get to change their minds?

Is there a version of democracy you would advocate?

Yes.

Are you going to answer me about Brexit?

I accept the result of the 2016 referendum. What version of democracy do you advocate?

[Immanuel Can]

"His mercy is to generation after generation
Toward those who revere Him."

Do the people in Hell get to change their minds?

Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed to men once to die, then the Judgment."

I accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

Does that mean you have no objections to the result? And if somebody campaigns as a "Remainer," are they being undemocratic?

[tillingborn]

"His mercy is to generation after generation
Toward those who revere Him."

Do the people in Hell get to change their minds?

Hebrews 9:27 "It is appointed to men once to die, then the Judgment."

Is the judgement final? Has God created an eternity in which souls suffer for their behaviour as a corporeal being?

I accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

Does that mean you have no objections to the result? And if somebody campaigns as a "Remainer," are they being undemocratic?

Could you please acknowledge that you have read this:

Of course you can doubt and criticise, but when you refuse, you are no longer democratic.

If you have any remaining questions about how I understand democracy, could you at least phrase them in that context?

[Immanuel Can]

Is the judgement final?

Rev. 20:11-15

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

I accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

Does that mean you have no objections to the result? And if somebody campaigns as a "Remainer," are they being undemocratic?

Could you please acknowledge that you have read this:

Of course you can doubt and criticise, but when you refuse, you are no longer democratic.

If you have any remaining questions about how I understand democracy, could you at least phrase them in that context?

I have remaining questions. What actions fall within the range of what you mean by "refuse"?

[henry quirk]

Recognizin' the individual's life, liberty, and property are his is not a matter of majority say.

Darn right.

That's what "unalienable rights" means. It means no other person or group can legitimately and morally separate you from the right you have to life, liberty and property. They can only do it illegitimately and by force.

So it has zippo to do with what people "vote" to do. Unalienable rights are not a product of democracy; they are a pre-existing bedrock reality upon which democracy itself depends for its integrity and stability.

You can't legitimately take a man's life from him (though, of course, he can forfeit his right to live if he tries to take life from somebody else). You can't legitimately curtail his liberty (except to protect the same right for somebody else). And you can't take a man's property without also stealing his life and his liberty.

And why?

Because when people need property or money, they invest their time to get it: they do work. They put some portion of their lives into it. And life is precious: it is finite, fungible, and continually diminishing. It's all a person has.

Their time is their lifespan. They are literally giving up their lifespan in order to get money or property they need in order to live.

If the government or somebody else steals their property or money, they are taking somebody else's time, their life. They are robbing them not just of their "stuff' but of the time it took to get all the "stuff." And they are robbing them of their right to invest their lifespan as they choose.

That's slavery. In slavery, one person does the work and somebody more powerful decides how to spend the money; somebody more powerful takes their time and work. In Socialism, exactly the same thing happens. You work, you give up your time for the money and property you need in order to survive, and instead of getting to do with it as you would decide, the government steals it and spends it as it wants.

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[henry quirk]

Recognizin' the individual's life, liberty, and property are his is not a matter of majority say.

It's a reality.

You don't vote on it. You may have to defend it, assert it, but no votin', no democracy, is required.

What wretched situation are you in that those things are a concern? Do you live in a place where your life, liberty and property are not yours?

How sheltered you must be for these things to not be your utmost concern.

You either live in impregnable fortress, or gilded cage.

Me, I live in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature.

[tillingborn]

Me, I live in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature.

So what can you tell us about slavery?

[henry quirk]

Me, I live in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature.

So what can you tell us about slavery?

What would you like to know?

[tillingborn]

Me, I live in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature.

So what can you tell us about slavery?

What would you like to know?

Anything you can tell me about life as a slave.

[henry quirk]

So what can you tell us about slavery?

What would you like to know?

Anything you can tell me about life as a slave.

It is doin' as your told, not as you choose.

It is bein' completely dependent on another, not cuz you lack capacity to self-attend, but becuz you aren't allowed to self-attend or -direct.

It is bein' used as another would use you, your objections not only dismissed, but punished.

You are property.

[tillingborn]

You are property.

Can we be clear about this? As someone who lives "in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature" do you have personal experience of slavery?

[tillingborn]

Is the Scripture unclear to you what is happening?

Mercy is being fulfilled. (sheep)

So is justice. (goats)

2 Peter 3: 8-10

"...with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered."

It is unclear what scripture means on a personal scale. The Lord may be patient, but if I am to interpret scripture literally, then everything for which I will be judged is done in approximately two God hours. Regardless of how long God takes to try me, what other than my three score and ten will be taken into consideration?

[henry quirk]

You are property.

Can we be clear about this? As someone who lives "in a world where slavery has been, and is, a salient feature" do you have personal experience of slavery?

Did I say I was a slave, or had been a slave?

What's your point?

[tillingborn]

Did I say I was a slave, or had been a slave?

What's your point?

Do you equate democracy with slavery?