the limits of fascism

How should society be organised, if at all?

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tillingborn
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by tillingborn »

I'm very happy for you, but given that:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pm"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."
What do you hope to achieve that God can't?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

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tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:59 pm I'm very happy for you, but given that:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:33 pm"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."
What do you hope to achieve that God can't?
In regard to salvation itself, I actually "hope to achieve" nothing, because I can't. I can't save you or anybody else. Only God can do that. And even He waits upon your willingness.

But God Himself has commanded that the news of His love and salvation should be shared from one person to another (1 Cor. 1:21). Those who have discovered the good that God has done for us must pass it on.

So I suppose what I "hope to achieve" is twofold: obedience to God and benefit to the hearers. And those seem to me to be excellent goals.
tillingborn
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Re: the limits of fascism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:14 pmIn regard to salvation itself, I actually "hope to achieve" nothing, because I can't. I can't save you or anybody else. Only God can do that. And even He waits upon your willingness.
Perhaps being a benevolent and patient God He will grant me the requisite longevity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:14 pmBut God Himself has commanded that the news of His love and salvation should be shared from one person to another (1 Cor. 1:21). Those who have discovered the good that God has done for us must pass it on.
Why do you think God relies on others to share the good that He does, but "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:14 pmSo I suppose what I "hope to achieve" is twofold: obedience to God and benefit to the hearers. And those seem to me to be excellent goals.
The benefit to the hearers, so you say, is eternal life. It's hard to ask this in a way that doesn't sound facetious, but has anyone you know with first hand knowledge of post corporeal life told you about the benefits? Or is everyone who is currently dead on hold until the rapture and reanimation of their body?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:14 pmIn regard to salvation itself, I actually "hope to achieve" nothing, because I can't. I can't save you or anybody else. Only God can do that. And even He waits upon your willingness.
Perhaps being a benevolent and patient God He will grant me the requisite longevity.
Longevity? Eternal longevity? He does indeed offer that. And anything less would, of course, only put off the problem of death. It wouldn't deal with it.
Why do you think God relies on others...
I can only guess. You'll have to ask Him.
...has anyone you know with first hand knowledge of post corporeal life told you about the benefits?

You can ask this question on Easter weekend? :D

I think the phrase in court is, "Asked and answered."
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henry quirk
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Re: the limits of fascism

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You can ask this question on Easter weekend?

...was crucified, died, and was buried, descended into hell, rose again from the dead on the third day,
tillingborn
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Re: the limits of fascism

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pmLongevity? Eternal longevity? He does indeed offer that. And anything less would, of course, only put off the problem of death. It wouldn't deal with it.
Why is death a problem?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Why do you think God relies on others...
I can only guess. You'll have to ask Him.
How can we be sure the others weren't guessing?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pm
...has anyone you know with first hand knowledge of post corporeal life told you about the benefits?

You can ask this question on Easter weekend? :D

I think the phrase in court is, "Asked and answered."
Allowing for any personal relationships that Christians claim with Jesus, it is a sample of one. It's not unprecedented in science; there is one known example of a Big Bang, one known example of life, which contains the only known source of consciousness, even as some of those creatures might be on the verge of creating artificial consciousness. Wouldn't it be funny if AI turns out to be less obedient than we hope; that we have to isolate or destroy it? Suppose then some ethical body, or perhaps individual, decides pulling the plug would be murder so maintains the program until it becomes dangerous. Floods it so that just a few choice examples survive. Further generations still become corrupted, so a patch is tried with the hope that it will spread and get everything behaving as desired, with a warning of what will happen if we don't. Wouldn't that be funny? I don't happen to believe it, but I like chocolate and the limited parties we can currently enjoy, so Happy Easter everyone.
Belinda
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:19 pm You can ask this question on Easter weekend?

...was crucified, died, and was buried, descended into hell, rose again from the dead on the third day,
The people who lived during the times of Jesus were as real as you or I, and ghosts were as impossible then as now.

If you want to use and make sense of that Biblical quotation you really ,in sanity, have to think of it as a metaphor for how the spirit of Jesus lived on after His death.
Advocate
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Re: the limits of fascism

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Every time a new child is born, the government must prove its entire legitimacy anew.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:20 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pmLongevity? Eternal longevity? He does indeed offer that. And anything less would, of course, only put off the problem of death. It wouldn't deal with it.
Why is death a problem?
Heh. Another odd question. Wait until you're in late middle age, and then ask it again, if you need to. :wink:

Death isn't just A problem. It's THE problem. And I speak not only of the ultimate death, but of all the decline, entropy, corruption and decay you see in the world around you every day, from the plants that die in your garden to the civilians massacred this week in Myanmar....all of it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pm
Why do you think God relies on others...
I can only guess. You'll have to ask Him.
How can we be sure the others weren't guessing?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:11 pm
...has anyone you know with first hand knowledge of post corporeal life told you about the benefits?

You can ask this question on Easter weekend? :D

I think the phrase in court is, "Asked and answered."
Allowing for any personal relationships that Christians claim with Jesus, it is a sample of one.[/quote]
Well, I'm not alone. But even if I were, then for me, it's the best evidence there can ever be. You might want more evidence, and could have more evidence, but you also might refuse to look for that evidence. It will be up to you.
Wouldn't it be funny if AI turns out to be less obedient than we hope;
That's an old sci-fi trope. And maybe it will eventually turn out to be a problem. But at present, what we call "AI" isn't literally "intelligent," so that time is probably speculative right now.

But there's a reason for the old trope, no doubt. And at minimum, it's this: we don't always know what we're doing with our technologies. We invent them, and sometime later we begin to see what they are really going to do...usually too late for us to do anything about it. Freud said this in his essay, "Civilization and Its Discontents." The same could be said of our political "technologies," particularly those that bend to the utopian -- to "The Triumph of the Proletariat," or "the Third Reich," or "The Just State," or "The Great Reset," or "Globalism" or whatever.

We're much smarter if we keep in mind that all such "technologies" are the tentative attempts of flawed mankind to produce justice and security -- and that none of them can be safely trusted at all times, even when they seem to be working for a little while. Because ultimately, they're the products of flawed humans speculating in flawed ways. Thus the necessity of limitations of power, plural-party systems, strict terms and powers, and so on. These are the best means we have of preventing the worst implications of our political "technologies" from coming to the fore and thereafter being uncheckable.
Skepdick
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Re: the limits of fascism

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Advocate wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:13 pm Every time a new child is born, the government must prove its entire legitimacy anew.
So all 8 billion people show up at the child's house or...?

How do you see this scaling?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am If you want to use and make sense of that Biblical quotation you really ,in sanity, have to think of it as a metaphor for how the spirit of Jesus lived on after His death.
Interesting. The Apostle Paul disagrees with you entirely, of course.

"Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead..."
(1 Cor. 15:12-20)

Indeed He has.
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Re: the limits of fascism

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[quote=Skepdick post_id=505812 time=1617455842 user_id=17350]
[quote=Advocate post_id=505810 time=1617455626 user_id=15238]
Every time a new child is born, the government must prove its entire legitimacy anew.
[/quote]
So all 8 billion people show up at the child's house or...?

How do you see this scaling?
[/quote]

I see an official FAQ that shows the pillars of legitimacy being met and maintained, with updated links to relevant. neutral sources and government archives for additional information. If they have any questions beyond that, they should be answered.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:57 pm ...the pillars of legitimacy being met and maintained...
What are these "pillars"?
Belinda
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am If you want to use and make sense of that Biblical quotation you really ,in sanity, have to think of it as a metaphor for how the spirit of Jesus lived on after His death.
Interesting. The Apostle Paul disagrees with you entirely, of course.

"Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead..."
(1 Cor. 15:12-20)

Indeed He has.
This not the first time Immanuel Can has confused Jesus, a historical person, with Christ, a mythic person.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: the limits of fascism

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:23 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:32 am If you want to use and make sense of that Biblical quotation you really ,in sanity, have to think of it as a metaphor for how the spirit of Jesus lived on after His death.
Interesting. The Apostle Paul disagrees with you entirely, of course.

"Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, your faith also is in vain. Moreover, we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ only in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead..."
(1 Cor. 15:12-20)

Indeed He has.
This not the first time Immanuel Can has confused Jesus, a historical person, with Christ, a mythic person.
What Paul is saying, B. is that as a mere "mythic person," Jesus Christ's resurrection not only lacks meaning, but has an extremely negative implication...indeed, the worst implication possible.

So "mything" Christianity doesn't get you some magical gift of mythic meaning without bothering with the literalities: it gets you a very, very bad literal outcome. That's all. :shock:

In the case of the Resurrection, you believe it literally, or you get worse than nothing. You get to be "most pitiable of all people."
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