earned citizenship

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Advocate
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Re: earned citizenship

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=470109 time=1599663697 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=470104 time=1599663182 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=470103 time=1599662972 user_id=472]


agreed

seems to me: joe murders, the family & friends of Joe's victim want justice, then the victim's family & friends ought to be willin' to enact it

the state's monopoly blunts justice & empowers cowards
[/quote]

All individuals are entitled to justice. Very few individuals are entitled to be arbiters of justice.
[/quote]

[b]If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? F. Bastiat[/b]
[/quote]

Who gets to decide? is Always a relevant problem with every ideology, and it's what's being addressed with the idea of merit. The fact remains that some people Are of a finer clay and that's a distinction that makes a very real practical difference. We ignore it at our peril. Being anti-meritocracy is akin to being anti-intellectual; they're solutions, not problems, however much tweaking they'll need.
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henry quirk
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by henry quirk »

Who gets to decide?

if this...

A man belongs to himself.

His life, liberty, and property are his.

His life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.


...is the foundation, then the answer is: everyone
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by henry quirk »

Being anti-meritocracy is akin to being anti-intellectual

there's one helluva of difference between a natural meritocracy (joe is best plumber in town) and the artificial meritocracy (state-sponsored bureaucracy)

the first is commonsensical; the second, truly anti-intellectual
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by Advocate »

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=470141 time=1599667014 user_id=472]
[b]Being anti-meritocracy is akin to being anti-intellectual[/b]

there's one helluva of difference between a natural meritocracy (joe is best plumber in town) and the artificial meritocracy (state-sponsored bureaucracy)

the first is commonsensical; the second, truly anti-intellectual
[/quote]

State-sponsored meritocracy isn't inherently bad. Also, natural merit can be gamed, which is basically how we ended up with a state in the first place, to rein in those shenanigans.
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henry quirk
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Re: earned citizenship

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State-sponsored meritocracy isn't inherently bad.

yeah, it is...always: merit, with the state is credentials and brown-nosin' and parasitism and -- of course -- bucks


Also, natural merit can be gamed

well, it can be marketed extravagantly, hyperbolically, but if advertisin' and performance don't meet up: the jig is up


which is basically how we ended up with a state in the first place, to rein in those shenanigans.

seems to me: we got the state cuz some folks are always lookin' to leash others

the state reigns in free men: that's its true purpose
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Re: earned citizenship

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=470170 time=1599674089 user_id=472]
[b]State-sponsored meritocracy isn't inherently bad.[/b]

yeah, it is...always: merit, with the state is credentials and brown-nosin' and parasitism and -- of course -- bucks

That's an appt description of a bad-acting state. Are you saying there's no other kind?
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henry quirk
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by henry quirk »

That's an appt description of a bad-acting state. Are you saying there's no other kind?

I think good intentions pave a downward-leadin' road: yes, state = bad idea
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Sculptor
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by Sculptor »

Advocate wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:32 pm One of the state's central duties is to ensure only those who are sufficiently prepared are allowed to participate in society in ways that significantly effect others. That means business owners and maids just as much as public servants. All citizens must understand the civic process, how to proceed through it, most importantly how to challenge it successfully, and how to opt out if the system isn't right for you.

bonus: A good citizen is not a compliant one, the way the state is set up today. A good citizen challenges the state when it's obviously wrong and when it's probably wrong if they have the time. A good citizen does not vote in a corrupt system. Participation = perpetuation.
White skin and a penis probably helps yes?
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Is someone here suggesting that just because a huperson has a penis it makes them a male? Shame on him/her/it/zir.........
gaffo
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by gaffo »

Advocate wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:15 am
gaffo wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:15 am
Advocate wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:39 am
I can't concur that mere existence has value.
then you do not affirm Natural Law (Inalienable rights).

interesting...........i do not share your view of course.
Natural Law is that you can do whatever you can get away with - might makes right. Do you mean Common Law
no, my reference was to Natural Law, and your understanding of it is not mine.

and i do know of Common Law too - and why Trial by Combat is still legal in the State of New York - after the United Kingdom made it illegal 200 yrs ago.

my reply to you was via Natural Law, but if you wish to talk about Common Law (BTW the right to bare arms is a common law right - no need for a US 2nd amendment - fully affirmed legal to own arms via a Brit/Ausie/Kiwi/Canuk from the 1600's to near today.) I'm game also.
gaffo
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by gaffo »

Advocate wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:19 am
Titles of nobility are nothing like "a teired citizenship" the way this post is about.
if you say so.

lol.
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:45 pm
gaffo wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:40 am
commonsense wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:00 pm

This must be a should rather than an is. But how could we possibly ever make this into an is, when the overwhelming majority of our population is granted citizenship by virtue of location of birth? Even to say that citizenship is partially limited until a person reaches voting age is still problematic, because a person is free of limitations upon reaching a certain age, whether ready or not.
there should almost be no barriers to citizenship, i affirm citizenship via being born here.

without that we end up with - Palestinians born in Israel's WB, Labanon, Syria, Gaza - for going on 69 yrs now - with no citizenship in the lands they live in.

like all the Black Americans (minus the few freed ones) - millions for 200 yrs from 1650 to 1865.

so no, denial of citizenship to the land one is born in is evil and wrong.
exactly

if this...

A man belongs to himself.

His life, liberty, and property are his.

His life, liberty, and property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property.

...is your charter, your constitution: then there's no need for tests or oaths
Amen, and thank you for affirming my view - our view - of Inalienable Rights/Natural Law.

Thank you for loving and affirming the concepts of our Constitution too.

from one Patriot to another Sir.

- i only wish there were more of us US Citizens that were learned of and valued what we speak of here in this forum. ;-/.
gaffo
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:49 pm
gaffo wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:12 am
henry quirk wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:51 am I wasn't expecting an actual response with actual points in it..

thanks for nuthin', guy


The inherently moral worth and dignity of all persons cannot be a universal default.

mebbe not, but even the lowest scumbag belongs to himself, is a person: there's your universal default (ownness)

'course, that loops back to my post above which didn't cut the mustard... :thumbsdown:
and thats why i oppose the Death Penalty, it gives The State the power to remove life (an inalienable right (only "God" - the life giving, has the right to remove that same life).
agreed

seems to me: joe murders, the family & friends of Joe's victim want justice, then the victim's family & friends ought to be willin' to enact it

the state's monopoly blunts justice & empowers cowards
yes, you are talking about the spectical and those that follow - the weak minded. (48 hours anyone?).

fk 48 hrs, and weak minds.

BTW I'm a Liberal - not fucking Social Justice - I'm a white guy, have no guilt over it, never owned slaves, and ya there is still racism - but not much - fuck! a black man was president (and i liked him generally - but still sold out via my mindset per being a corporate shill) I'm an old school class liberal (fucking breaj up monopolies, and tax the rich back to Eisenhower levels - not Reagon/Clinton levels (Trickelshitdown" ; no trickle).

loved Bernie -since 5 yrs ago, but oh well, no more feeling the burn. He caved (did not sell out - i still wish to affirm my prior view of the man, and hope to think the understood he lost on supertuesday - and so conceded to Biden - fully senile - out of getting some crumbs of what he and i value - economic more equity (ya tax the rich - there is no trickle - and yes there is abuse via welfare, but 1, remove the abuse, then tax the rich that have not been taxed since Reagan.

-------------------------
my appologies i got divertered to the classwar - that the Reps.Dems forgot about 30 yrs ago.


back on point, i;d like to thank you for being a Patriotic American Citizen, and as long as we have folks like you, there remains hope for America.

thanks for reply.


--------

adendum. i hate villanizing the parents of the Bundies, in most cases the parents, siblings of Ted were fine folks and do not merit labeling as evil.

the world is complex, piers, and genetics play a part - so no need to blame parents (via being parents of - evidence is another things and fine/if parents were dicks and made their son a monster - fine) via the DNA/kids life experience outside of his parents guidence.
gaffo
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by gaffo »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:31 pm
Advocate wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:32 pm One of the state's central duties is to ensure only those who are sufficiently prepared are allowed to participate in society in ways that significantly effect others. That means business owners and maids just as much as public servants. All citizens must understand the civic process, how to proceed through it, most importantly how to challenge it successfully, and how to opt out if the system isn't right for you.

bonus: A good citizen is not a compliant one, the way the state is set up today. A good citizen challenges the state when it's obviously wrong and when it's probably wrong if they have the time. A good citizen does not vote in a corrupt system. Participation = perpetuation.
White skin and a penis probably helps yes?
yes and the whiter and bigger the better per power.

i was born with both in the top tier - thankful of, knowing, but no guilt for such, as a man i value being a good one, and strive to be so. I'm thankfull of birth, but have no guilt over it (mindful of the privalege), i am via my character, nothing more.

thank "god/s" is was not born an.

Ugly

Fat

Black

Woman

Lesbian

Handicapped

Mentally ill

------------- BTW i personally knew of via the above 20 yrs ago. a female lesbian black schizophrinic person - living accross the street from 25 yrs ago - nice black women, i liked her - she like me (in spite of my whiteness/straighness/ mentally not schizo/etc...............one human to the other).

So ya there is the bias of birth.

i hope she is doing well - and thank her for not condemning me via my birth to hate me and instead see me as the person i am, as i did her.
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Re: earned citizenship

Post by Sculptor »

gaffo wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:45 am Participation = perpetuation.
[/quote]

Participation means change.
How the hell do you think we got the vote in the first place?

Non Paricipation = slavery and oppression
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