Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Sculptor wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:51 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:26 pm
I don't think any European country as attempted to learn any thing from the USA. It was Englishmen that invented the USA in the first place. And democracy derives from Classical studies of Greece particularly.
Even after 1776 England was pretty much as democratic as the US. And in the vote-race to achieve a larger plebiscite the UK outstripped the US post-Chartist movement; and anti-slavery laws of 1811 and 1832.
Meanwhile the US had to knock ten shades of shit out of themselves before they made slaves free circa 1860.
So, although the US is very good indeed at self publicising themselves as the purveyor of democracy, they have been pretty much behind the curve for most of the time.
What the US does not seem to realise is that democracy at the point of a gun tends to work not too well. And often the results are not what they expect. Such as the democratically elected Hamas party. :)
To your first. Not now for G D sure.

If you watch the Show Sicko, you will see the democratic ideal that the U.S. constitution gives, that Europe and Canada are practicing a lot better than the U.S. does.

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DL
I've seen Sicko. M Moore is the conscience of the US. HE is widely ignored by those that ought to listen.
The but the US has never led the democracy charge. They have shouted the loudest that is for sure. But US democracy has never been the best.
Correct as to how the U.S. applies and interprets it.

Other countries walk the better parts better than the U.S. does.

To us here in Canada, for instance, when we see the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, Canadians also read in security of the person, which means a contract with citizen, that protects them from bankruptcy if they should be ill, with a decent government medical and drug system that beats your system hands down, as most E U systems do.

Even politically. See laïcité work in France and Quebec. They will be the model for the future quite soon, but the U.S. is way too backwards thinking to join the rest of the free world.

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DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:29 pm GIA
We must live in tribes as we are not in any way born free. That is the good part of tribalism, even as it holds the evil racism part within.
Plato called the these collective tribes together the Great Beast. What is the goal of a collective? Is it to create free people respecting their need for meaning that doesn't arise from the tribe or is the goal to create atoms of the tribe protecting tribal values while drawing meaning from the collective.

I believe that a tribe can serve as sacrament to reveal meaning beyond the domain of opinions. Most believe that the tribe gives meaning which is found by arguing acceptable opinions. The problem is that non-acceptable opinions like Man's nothingness fly in the face of tribal supremacy inviting the hemlock cocktail.

Are you a satisfied atom of the Great Beast content to argue opinions or do you have a need for meaning not offered by the Beast? The human question.
Some tribes are good and give the types of rewards you show. Some not, while some are even destructive to the tribe.

Take Christianity and their substitutional punishment / sacrifice of Jesus policy.

Moral people say that that is what will kill Christianity.

I add in their adoration of a genocidal god that they somehow see as good.

As to me, my mother always said I would never be satisfied with what was. She was correct.

I do like to argue, but to lose and not to win, but Christians have not been able to correct me in any major issue as I focus on morals, and when morals enter the discussion they usually run as they know they cannot win such discussions, given the vile nature of Yahweh and the homophobic and misogynous religion.

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DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

Post by Nick_A »

Greatest I am wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:27 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:29 pm GIA
We must live in tribes as we are not in any way born free. That is the good part of tribalism, even as it holds the evil racism part within.
Plato called the these collective tribes together the Great Beast. What is the goal of a collective? Is it to create free people respecting their need for meaning that doesn't arise from the tribe or is the goal to create atoms of the tribe protecting tribal values while drawing meaning from the collective.

I believe that a tribe can serve as sacrament to reveal meaning beyond the domain of opinions. Most believe that the tribe gives meaning which is found by arguing acceptable opinions. The problem is that non-acceptable opinions like Man's nothingness fly in the face of tribal supremacy inviting the hemlock cocktail.

Are you a satisfied atom of the Great Beast content to argue opinions or do you have a need for meaning not offered by the Beast? The human question.
Some tribes are good and give the types of rewards you show. Some not, while some are even destructive to the tribe.

Take Christianity and their substitutional punishment / sacrifice of Jesus policy.

Moral people say that that is what will kill Christianity.

I add in their adoration of a genocidal god that they somehow see as good.

As to me, my mother always said I would never be satisfied with what was. She was correct.

I do like to argue, but to lose and not to win, but Christians have not been able to correct me in any major issue as I focus on morals, and when morals enter the discussion they usually run as they know they cannot win such discussions, given the vile nature of Yahweh and the homophobic and misogynous religion.

Regards
DL
We do live in interesting times. What you call Christianity, I call Christendom or man made interpretations of Christianity. As you suggest, many people needing to feel "meaning" have become dissatisfied with Christendom and its personal God. Sincere seekers of truth need a path to truth which satisfies the longings of the heart but doesn't insult the intellect?

Will the essence of Christianity reappear allowing those sensitive to experience the perennial truths Christianity are expressions of? Will people become capable of understanding the purpose of the crucifixion and resurrection from a universal evolutionary perspective? My guess is as low and depraved the Great Beast is becoming, there will be a minority witnessing absurdity beginning to experience the needs of their hearts or the reality of the objective morality you are attracted to. The intensity of this need attracts results.
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Nice to read.

Let us pray.

The essence you seek in Christianity only exists in Gnostic Christianity.

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DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Greatest I am wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:04 pm Nice to read.

Let us pray.

The essence you seek in Christianity only exists in Gnostic Christianity.

Regards
DL
Gnosticism begins with a cosmic duality. Spirit is good and materiality is evil. It lacks the third force of reconciliation which brings meaning and purpose to our universe. I am more an esoteric Christian rather than a gnostic. In esoteric Christianity there is no contradiction between pure science and the essence of religion. It makes sense and can satisfy the needs of the heart without insulting the mind. This quality of understanding is important to me.
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 pm
nothing wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:19 pm

A racist ideology would be MORE LIKELY to allow a black person to convert:
utter nonesense - if you wish to talk about Wabbism, fine, but its not racist, unlike Nazism.
Islam is Nazism.

It takes a "believer" to "believe" themselves superior to others and/or others are inferior to themselves.
Islam, composed exclusively of "believers" religiously/militarily divides humanity on the basis of "believer vs. unbeliever".

All Nazis/supremacists are pinned to the side of the "believers".
An "unbeliever" can not be a supremacist by definition.
gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 pm and yes there is too much hate from them WRt to Jews, but its not due to the Jews being so via their Blood, but because of 1948 and the birth of Israel.

as you should know, jews lived in peace, as 2nd class citizens under the Ottomans for a millinia, its only within this last century - all political - since the creation of the State of Israel, the fundie Muslims got their panties in a bunch.
Worshiping a single book is what makes the "jew".
Muhammadans are no less "jew" than any other.

The "great deception" is the Muhammadans religiously scapegoating their own crimes against humanity onto "jews"... as the real jews.
gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 pm ---------------

now if you can show me - via a link from a Fundie Muslim, that Jews cannot convert to Islam, due to their blood, then you shall have won the agruement.
Muslim = Jew
gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:59 pm otherwise, you got nothing and are wrong!

Islam is not a Racist Theology, wrong, sexist, etc.............but not racist.
Islam is intensely polarized against "white people" as they are being used as the scapegoat for the Nazism/supremacism in/of Islam.
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Nick_A wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:16 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:04 pm Nice to read.

Let us pray.

The essence you seek in Christianity only exists in Gnostic Christianity.

Regards
DL
Gnosticism begins with a cosmic duality. Spirit is good and materiality is evil. It lacks the third force of reconciliation which brings meaning and purpose to our universe. I am more an esoteric Christian rather than a gnostic. In esoteric Christianity there is no contradiction between pure science and the essence of religion. It makes sense and can satisfy the needs of the heart without insulting the mind. This quality of understanding is important to me.
Careful. You are believing the garbage the inquisitors put out there to justify their inquisitions.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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G I am
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
Creation is within our Source or "I" beyond the limitations of time and space. Creation is "am" or the interactions of lawful forces within creation.

I remember using that quote and Immanual can accused me of being a Gnostic. Now I have to show why I reject Gnosticism

As a Platonic Christian it is easier to appreciate why there is no contradiction by putiing these quotes into Plato's cave allegory. We are in the cave and the cave is in the Kingdom. John Advises us not to love the world. This doesn't mean to hate it. When we are attached to the shadows on the wall in Plato's cave we remain ignorant of the source of the shadows.

The Gospel of Thomas suggests that as a part of creation we are within the kingdom. We are like a water soaked log in a lake. We are in the lake and lake water is within us.

Christianity, Gnosticism and Plato advise us to inwardly turn towards the light. But what is the light? What turns, what is resistance and how can we do it to become what we we were born to be? How can I and am be reconciled within us in order to receive from above and give to below?
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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The light is your mind.

Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

===================

Christianity does not quite agree, wording wise, with us.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Our hearts just confirm that the vision is a treasure.

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DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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"I remember using that quote and Immanual can accused me of being a Gnostic. Now I have to show why I reject Gnosticism"

My first priority in religious choice are the moral tenets it follows.

Those who choose to follow the genocidal god, Christians and others, obviously choose by some other criteria.

What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?

To reject logos may not be the best choice. You are rejecting logos for mythos. Yes?

If yes, why do such harm to yourself?

Regards
DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:38 pm The light is your mind.

Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

===================

Christianity does not quite agree, wording wise, with us.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Our hearts just confirm that the vision is a treasure.

Regards
DL
How do you experience value? Does it come from the mind or the heart? The mind compares phenomenon but the heart has the potential to feel both the hypocrisy of subjective values and universal objective values. When a person has the experience of feeling objective value it provides objective meaning for humanity the facts of the mind are incapable of offering. Neosis allows a person to feel objective value.

Why do you thing the apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus? He allowed them to feel objective "value."
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:44 pm "I remember using that quote and Immanual can accused me of being a Gnostic. Now I have to show why I reject Gnosticism"

My first priority in religious choice are the moral tenets it follows.

Those who choose to follow the genocidal god, Christians and others, obviously choose by some other criteria.

What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?

To reject logos may not be the best choice. You are rejecting logos for mythos. Yes?

If yes, why do such harm to yourself?

Regards
DL
I don't believe in the personal God. If the universe is the body of God governed by universal laws, how do the Ten Commandments support the needs of the body? i cannot accept that a supreme being is upset about morality. there must be more to it.

Since Man as a whole is incapable of objective universal conscience, we rely on man made interpretations called morality. It isn't that any supreme being is insulted but rather the commandments allow us to see how we forget our conscious potential to become ourselves and sink into the world dominated by negative emotions
What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?
My priority isn't to serve morality or to pacify a genocidal God. My priority is in becoming a conscious balanced human being gradually becoming open to conscience for the sake of understanding objective human meaning and purpose.
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:06 am
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:38 pm The light is your mind.

Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html

The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'

For where the mind is, there is the treasure.

===================

Christianity does not quite agree, wording wise, with us.

Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Our hearts just confirm that the vision is a treasure.

Regards
DL
How do you experience value? Does it come from the mind or the heart? The mind compares phenomenon but the heart has the potential to feel both the hypocrisy of subjective values and universal objective values. When a person has the experience of feeling objective value it provides objective meaning for humanity the facts of the mind are incapable of offering. Neosis allows a person to feel objective value.

Why do you thing the apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus? He allowed them to feel objective "value."
What is an example of an objective value?

Name an objective moral tenet and I might be able to tell you.

Regards
DL
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

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Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:34 am
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:44 pm "I remember using that quote and Immanual can accused me of being a Gnostic. Now I have to show why I reject Gnosticism"

My first priority in religious choice are the moral tenets it follows.

Those who choose to follow the genocidal god, Christians and others, obviously choose by some other criteria.

What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?

To reject logos may not be the best choice. You are rejecting logos for mythos. Yes?

If yes, why do such harm to yourself?

Regards
DL
I don't believe in the personal God. If the universe is the body of God governed by universal laws, how do the Ten Commandments support the needs of the body? i cannot accept that a supreme being is upset about morality. there must be more to it.

Since Man as a whole is incapable of objective universal conscience, we rely on man made interpretations called morality. It isn't that any supreme being is insulted but rather the commandments allow us to see how we forget our conscious potential to become ourselves and sink into the world dominated by negative emotions
What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?
My priority isn't to serve morality or to pacify a genocidal God. My priority is in becoming a conscious balanced human being gradually becoming open to conscience for the sake of understanding objective human meaning and purpose.
We are designed to evolve and reproduce.

What other objective moral tenet do you see in reality?

Regards
DL
Nick_A
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Re: Does the positive side of tribalism/racism outshine the negative side?

Post by Nick_A »

Greatest I am wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:12 pm
Nick_A wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:34 am
Greatest I am wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:44 pm "I remember using that quote and Immanual can accused me of being a Gnostic. Now I have to show why I reject Gnosticism"

My first priority in religious choice are the moral tenets it follows.

Those who choose to follow the genocidal god, Christians and others, obviously choose by some other criteria.

What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?

To reject logos may not be the best choice. You are rejecting logos for mythos. Yes?

If yes, why do such harm to yourself?

Regards
DL
I don't believe in the personal God. If the universe is the body of God governed by universal laws, how do the Ten Commandments support the needs of the body? i cannot accept that a supreme being is upset about morality. there must be more to it.

Since Man as a whole is incapable of objective universal conscience, we rely on man made interpretations called morality. It isn't that any supreme being is insulted but rather the commandments allow us to see how we forget our conscious potential to become ourselves and sink into the world dominated by negative emotions
What is your priority? Morals, or the power of a genocidal p**** of a god?
My priority isn't to serve morality or to pacify a genocidal God. My priority is in becoming a conscious balanced human being gradually becoming open to conscience for the sake of understanding objective human meaning and purpose.
We are designed to evolve and reproduce.

What other objective moral tenet do you see in reality?

Regards
DL
What you call evolution I call adaptation. Animal man doesn't evolve; rather it adapts to worldly conditions. Evolution is the growth of being. It is the change of one quality of being into another. Adaptation is the change of a given quality of being. Animal Man adapts while conscious Man evolves.

Thou shall not kill is a commandment most associate with societal life. Yet its deeper meaning is not to commit murder in the heart. All it does is cheapen the heart and deny its connection with higher consciousness. It is a universal axiom not just limited to our earth and necessary to help sustain evolutionary life in our universe.
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