Equality

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:24 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm

Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help

believe it or not: I'm pretty helpful too

but: I help those I choose to, not those who merely have a hand out, and not those I'm directed to

hate to break it to ya: but not everyone who asks for help, deserves it
In the olden days when communities were small and local , social welfare was provided by a monastery, or a church organisation, then voluntary charity worked. Now that most people live in cities and there are almost no neighbourhood charitable organisations welfare has to be funded from taxation.
It would be nice if we could still rely on folks who want to help but voluntary charity is not enough nowadays.

Publicly funded good quality education is very much aimed at teaching people not to be manipulated by others.
best I can tell: associated catholic charities is everywhere

again: get thee to a charity

education: as beer virus hysteria has illustrated (by way of shuttin' down public education) most folks can get by eithout the public schools

me: I'm no teacher, but my 14 year old reads, writes, is math tested, is learnin' civics, and anything else I can think of (includin' shotgun practice) daily

school was supposed to reopen aug 17; start was pushed back to sept 8

I'm thinkin' come then, it'll get pushed back again

at this point, I'm good with that: he's learnin' what he needs to (without all the attendant bullshit), he's happy, and -- while I'm no teacher -- I'm not half-bad at it
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:41 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm

ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help
You're very fortunate then. Not everyone who finds themselves in dire straights can find someone willing to voluntarily help. Some people need to turn to government programs for help. Government programs are impersonal and help people regardless of whether they have a pretty smile or are graciously penitant. If someone qualifies for help, such as having a handicap or being elderly (for example) and can't work any more they receive help. They don't need to go out on the streets and beg for a living, hoping to be lucky enough to find someone who will give them some help.
charities: if down & out get thee to a charity
I suppose you are right.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:51 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:24 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm

ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help

believe it or not: I'm pretty helpful too

but: I help those I choose to, not those who merely have a hand out, and not those I'm directed to

hate to break it to ya: but not everyone who asks for help, deserves it
In the olden days when communities were small and local , social welfare was provided by a monastery, or a church organisation, then voluntary charity worked. Now that most people live in cities and there are almost no neighbourhood charitable organisations welfare has to be funded from taxation.
It would be nice if we could still rely on folks who want to help but voluntary charity is not enough nowadays.

Publicly funded good quality education is very much aimed at teaching people not to be manipulated by others.
best I can tell: associated catholic charities is everywhere

again: get thee to a charity

education: as beer virus hysteria has illustrated (by way of shuttin' down public education) most folks can get by eithout the public schools

me: I'm no teacher, but my 14 year old reads, writes, is math tested, is learnin' civics, and anything else I can think of (includin' shotgun practice) daily

school was supposed to reopen aug 17; start was pushed back to sept 8

I'm thinkin' come then, it'll get pushed back again

at this point, I'm good with that: he's learnin' what he needs to (without all the attendant bullshit), he's happy, and -- while I'm no teacher -- I'm not half-bad at it
Are you sure you have been teaching him? Maybe you think teaching is the same as training.
You can train someone to shoot, but to help a child to think independently is not a matter of training.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Are you sure you have been teaching him, and not training him?

up yours, B
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:25 pm Are you sure you have been teaching him, and not training him?

up yours, B
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
Is there a difference between progressive education and training. One of the most difficult ideas to accept for anyone studying Simone Weil is why after becoming considered one of the most intelligent women in Marxism and its logic, she gradually became a Christian mystic? To accept why a scientific logical woman would deny the supremacy of logic is offensive. It never seems to dawn on modern education that it may be missing the point.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:54 pm Belinda
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
Is there a difference between progressive education and training. One of the most difficult ideas to accept for anyone studying Simone Weil is why after becoming considered one of the most intelligent women in Marxism and its logic, she gradually became a Christian mystic? To accept why a scientific logical woman would deny the supremacy of logic is offensive. It never seems to dawn on modern education that it may be missing the point.
Yes there is a difference. I am not knocking training which works by teaching someone to attain a predetermined goal. Education has no predetermined goal except to increase the freedom of students. By freedom I refer to open-ended freedom of choice which leads in some instances to genius taking to its wings and rising above contemporary frames of reference.

Mystics are known for their freedom from contemporary norms.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:54 pm Belinda
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
Is there a difference between progressive education and training. One of the most difficult ideas to accept for anyone studying Simone Weil is why after becoming considered one of the most intelligent women in Marxism and its logic, she gradually became a Christian mystic? To accept why a scientific logical woman would deny the supremacy of logic is offensive. It never seems to dawn on modern education that it may be missing the point.
Are you suggsting that learning what a gun is and how this tool must be respected to preserve human life rather than taking it is somehow less important than providing the young inexperienced the choice of who to kill to serve the interests of the state? Without a gun the student is restricted to burning down and destroying the good efforts of people building businesses as a matter of educated choice.

Yes there is a difference. I am not knocking training which works by teaching someone to attain a predetermined goal. Education has no predetermined goal except to increase the freedom of students. By freedom I refer to open-ended freedom of choice which leads in some instances to genius taking to its wings and rising above contemporary frames of reference.

Mystics are known for their freedom from contemporary norms.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:00 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:54 pm Belinda



Is there a difference between progressive education and training. One of the most difficult ideas to accept for anyone studying Simone Weil is why after becoming considered one of the most intelligent women in Marxism and its logic, she gradually became a Christian mystic? To accept why a scientific logical woman would deny the supremacy of logic is offensive. It never seems to dawn on modern education that it may be missing the point.
Are you suggsting that learning what a gun is and how this tool must be respected to preserve human life rather than taking it is somehow less important than providing the young inexperienced the choice of who to kill to serve the interests of the state? Without a gun the student is restricted to burning down and destroying the good efforts of people building businesses as a matter of educated choice.

Yes there is a difference. I am not knocking training which works by teaching someone to attain a predetermined goal. Education has no predetermined goal except to increase the freedom of students. By freedom I refer to open-ended freedom of choice which leads in some instances to genius taking to its wings and rising above contemporary frames of reference.

Mystics are known for their freedom from contemporary norms.
No. Training is nothing to do with ethics. Education deals with ethics.
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

There’s a difference between sex education and sex training.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:21 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:00 pm

Are you suggsting that learning what a gun is and how this tool must be respected to preserve human life rather than taking it is somehow less important than providing the young inexperienced the choice of who to kill to serve the interests of the state? Without a gun the student is restricted to burning down and destroying the good efforts of people building businesses as a matter of educated choice.

Yes there is a difference. I am not knocking training which works by teaching someone to attain a predetermined goal. Education has no predetermined goal except to increase the freedom of students. By freedom I refer to open-ended freedom of choice which leads in some instances to genius taking to its wings and rising above contemporary frames of reference.

Mystics are known for their freedom from contemporary norms.
No. Training is nothing to do with ethics. Education deals with ethics.
What is so ethical bout BLM and antifa expressing the ethics of their education by destroying the good works of others? Perhaps a person having been trained in how to use and value a gun has a quality of understanding those indoctrinated into acceptable ethics is yet to learn.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:50 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:21 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:18 pm
No. Training is nothing to do with ethics. Education deals with ethics.
What is so ethical bout BLM and antifa expressing the ethics of their education by destroying the good works of others? Perhaps a person having been trained in how to use and value a gun has a quality of understanding those indoctrinated into acceptable ethics is yet to learn.
Nick, please edit and post this again using the correct bracketing. Your bracketing makes it seem I have said what I did not say.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:28 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:25 pm Are you sure you have been teaching him, and not training him?

up yours, B
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
exactly what a good socialist would say... :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure everything I do, you'd frown on

so fortunate, for me, you don't get a say
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:58 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:28 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:25 pm Are you sure you have been teaching him, and not training him?

up yours, B
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
exactly what a good socialist would say... :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure everything I do, you'd frown on

so fortunate, for me, you don't get a say
You may be a teacher, but you aren’t an educator.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:29 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:58 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:28 pm
It's quite common for people who have not learned education as an academic discipline to confuse education and training.
exactly what a good socialist would say... :thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure everything I do, you'd frown on

so fortunate, for me, you don't get a say
You may be a teacher, but you aren’t an educator.
I'm neither

I'm just a guy doin' right by his kid
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