Equality

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Age
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Re: Equality

Post by Age »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:55 am Do we really want equality either of opportunity or outcome

sensibly, no

to court either is to court the leash


or does it just sound good for a society to argue it as in the debate over entitlements.

excellent observation

they call it virtue signalin' nowadays; when I was growin' up it was called bein' holier than thou

swollen chest, proud cluckin', perfectly willin' to supervise or direct the other guy
But, if you were not so 'greedy' AND so 'selfish', then you would NOT 'need' supervising AND directing, by "another".

You are FORCED to hand over a part of "your" money to the government/society, which controls 'you', and, as long as they use this money and spend on outcomes for 'you', then you are okay with this. But, if that government/society spends, what you BELIEVE is "your" money on helping "others", then you really do NOT like this, correct?

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:55 am As I understand it the most powerful societal motive is prestige and equality nullifies prestige.

all men are created equal but some men are just a touch more equal than the rest: might be the credo of the high & mighty

you know, the ones who shake & move (on Epstein's Island)
Like the ones who "shake and move" on "your" island also, correct?
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:55 am John Adams wrote: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

he left out commonsensical
Once again, only looking at and seeing just a TINY PART of 'humanity', itself, in regards to 'Equality', Itself, is just PURE 'absurdity AND nonsensical', itself.
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:46 pm Absolutely. If his only alternative is going to be pan-handling on the street corner for a living, then it shouldn't be up to any particular person to take him in.

then get him to a shelter, a charity, a church and keep your mitts offa my cash


No. I'm not going to bring him home with me anymore than you are.

If you don't have any community services, and if he can't get a job that will afford him a living because of his handicap, what's he supposed to do? Or what about the elderly who are too old for gainful employement and don't have kids to take care of them in old age? What happens to them when they can't take care of themselves? Who takes them in?

you mean to say: cuz some folks can't meet their needs (and you're not willin' to put your money where your mouth is) other folks ought to pitch in (whether they want to or not).

words that come to mind: hypocrite, slaver...you, comfortable forcin' others to do what you yourself won't.
a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do. If I were a hypocrite, I would expect others to chip in to help the guy but not me. However, I'm perfectly fine with helping the guy, but I can't afford to help Joe by myself. However, a community can do so collectively and still get by just fine.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:05 am
henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:46 pm Absolutely. If his only alternative is going to be pan-handling on the street corner for a living, then it shouldn't be up to any particular person to take him in.

then get him to a shelter, a charity, a church and keep your mitts offa my cash


No. I'm not going to bring him home with me anymore than you are.

If you don't have any community services, and if he can't get a job that will afford him a living because of his handicap, what's he supposed to do? Or what about the elderly who are too old for gainful employement and don't have kids to take care of them in old age? What happens to them when they can't take care of themselves? Who takes them in?

you mean to say: cuz some folks can't meet their needs (and you're not willin' to put your money where your mouth is) other folks ought to pitch in (whether they want to or not).

words that come to mind: hypocrite, slaver...you, comfortable forcin' others to do what you yourself won't.
a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do. If I were a hypocrite, I would expect others to chip in to help the guy but not me. However, I'm perfectly fine with helping the guy, but I can't afford to help Joe by myself. However, a community can do so collectively and still get by just fine.
In the apparent absence of a community effort, if I help someone else it would be a sign, or even evidence, that anonymous others are helping too.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do.

let's review: you wanna help, are unwilling to do so, you expect others to

hmmm


However, a community can do so collectively and still get by just fine.

community is not synonymous with unity or unified

here's an idea: get your boy to a charity

if no charity exists: get together with like-minded folks and start one

put your money where your mouth is
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:52 pm a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do.

let's review: you wanna help, are unwilling to do so, you expect others to

hmmm

No. Like you, I'm unwilling to take him into my home. I'm not unwilling to chip in with others to help get him a home.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:21 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:52 pm a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do.

let's review: you wanna help, are unwilling to do so, you expect others to

hmmm

No. Like you, I'm unwilling to take him into my home. I'm not unwilling to chip in with others to help get him a home.
here's difference, gary: I don't expect the community to pick up the tab

so: you chip in with others (of like mind) and get him a home...pay his bills...feed him...wipe his bum

lead by example, guy
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:26 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:21 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:52 pm a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do.

let's review: you wanna help, are unwilling to do so, you expect others to

hmmm

No. Like you, I'm unwilling to take him into my home. I'm not unwilling to chip in with others to help get him a home.
here's difference, gary: I don't expect the community to pick up the tab

so: you chip in with others (of like mind) and get him a home...pay his bills...feed him...wipe his bum

lead by example, guy
I pay taxes and donate to charities from time to time. What more "example" do you want from me?
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:52 pm a hypocrite is someone who expects others to do what he will not do.

let's review: you wanna help, are unwilling to do so, you expect others to

hmmm


However, a community can do so collectively and still get by just fine.

community is not synonymous with unity or unified

here's an idea: get your boy to a charity

if no charity exists: get together with like-minded folks and start one

put your money where your mouth is
hypocrisy is the natural result of equality striving towards prestige. Even giving to a chrity is just proving you are better than the person in need.

John Adams wrote that our Constituion is only for a religious and moral people. Why? It has to do with prestige. The Great Beast or society itself is governed by prestige. However the society Simone wrote of has the potential for people to experience humility. Humility isn't experienced from fear but rather the awareness of a quality of intelligence far superior to our own but we are a part of. We feel humble in front of it. Prestige would be the motivating force for the Great Beast while humility to experience human meaning would be a characteristic of a super civilization; the potential for Man. We can see how far we are from it so hypocrisy rules the day.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:26 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:21 pm

No. Like you, I'm unwilling to take him into my home. I'm not unwilling to chip in with others to help get him a home.
here's difference, gary: I don't expect the community to pick up the tab

so: you chip in with others (of like mind) and get him a home...pay his bills...feed him...wipe his bum

lead by example, guy
I pay taxes and donate to charities from time to time. What more "example" do you want from me?
me, I don't want nuthin' from you

just sayin': if the welfare of the poor other is that important to you then mebbe instead of lookin' to everyone to lend a hand, you ought to take the initiative

I'm not raggin' on you so much as your attitude: here's a problem but I'm certainly not gonna put myself out to address it, let's all do it together

some of us don't share your concern and don't wanna help
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:00 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:33 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:26 pm

here's difference, gary: I don't expect the community to pick up the tab

so: you chip in with others (of like mind) and get him a home...pay his bills...feed him...wipe his bum

lead by example, guy
I pay taxes and donate to charities from time to time. What more "example" do you want from me?
me, I don't want nuthin' from you

just sayin': if the welfare of the poor other is that important to you then mebbe instead of lookin' to everyone to lend a hand, you ought to take the initiative

I'm not raggin' on you so much as your attitude: here's a problem but I'm certainly not gonna put myself out to address it, let's all do it together

some of us don't share your concern and don't wanna help
Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:00 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:33 pm

I pay taxes and donate to charities from time to time. What more "example" do you want from me?
me, I don't want nuthin' from you

just sayin': if the welfare of the poor other is that important to you then mebbe instead of lookin' to everyone to lend a hand, you ought to take the initiative

I'm not raggin' on you so much as your attitude: here's a problem but I'm certainly not gonna put myself out to address it, let's all do it together

some of us don't share your concern and don't wanna help
Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help

believe it or not: I'm pretty helpful too

but: I help those I choose to, not those who merely have a hand out, and not those I'm directed to

hate to break it to ya: but not everyone who asks for help, deserves it
Gary Childress
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Re: Equality

Post by Gary Childress »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:00 pm

me, I don't want nuthin' from you

just sayin': if the welfare of the poor other is that important to you then mebbe instead of lookin' to everyone to lend a hand, you ought to take the initiative

I'm not raggin' on you so much as your attitude: here's a problem but I'm certainly not gonna put myself out to address it, let's all do it together

some of us don't share your concern and don't wanna help
Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help
You're very fortunate then. Not everyone who finds themselves in dire straights can find someone willing to voluntarily help. Some people need to turn to government programs for help. Government programs are impersonal and help people regardless of whether they have a pretty smile or are graciously penitant. If someone qualifies for help, such as having a handicap or being elderly (for example) and can't work any more they receive help. They don't need to go out on the streets and beg for a living, hoping to be lucky enough to find someone who will give them some help.
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:00 pm

me, I don't want nuthin' from you

just sayin': if the welfare of the poor other is that important to you then mebbe instead of lookin' to everyone to lend a hand, you ought to take the initiative

I'm not raggin' on you so much as your attitude: here's a problem but I'm certainly not gonna put myself out to address it, let's all do it together

some of us don't share your concern and don't wanna help
Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help

believe it or not: I'm pretty helpful too

but: I help those I choose to, not those who merely have a hand out, and not those I'm directed to

hate to break it to ya: but not everyone who asks for help, deserves it
In the olden days when communities were small and local , social welfare was provided by a monastery, or a church organisation, then voluntary charity worked. Now that most people live in cities and there are almost no neighbourhood charitable organisations welfare has to be funded from taxation.
It would be nice if we could still rely on folks who want to help but voluntary charity is not enough nowadays.

Publicly funded good quality education is very much aimed at teaching people not to be manipulated by others.
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:24 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm

Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help

believe it or not: I'm pretty helpful too

but: I help those I choose to, not those who merely have a hand out, and not those I'm directed to

hate to break it to ya: but not everyone who asks for help, deserves it
In the olden days when communities were small and local , social welfare was provided by a monastery, or a church organisation, then voluntary charity worked. Now that most people live in cities and there are almost no neighbourhood charitable organisations welfare has to be funded from taxation.
It would be nice if we could still rely on folks who want to help but voluntary charity is not enough nowadays.

Publicly funded good quality education is very much aimed at teaching people not to be manipulated by others.
Amen.
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henry quirk
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Re: Equality

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:53 pm

Well, for whatever it's worth, I would still help you, even if you suddenly found yourself disabled some day. I would still donate to charity and pay my share of taxes. I know you're invincible and would never find yourself in a situation where you needed help, but it would be there for you.
ain't invincible, have needed help many tines, always got it from folks who wanted to help, never from folks who were forced to help
You're very fortunate then. Not everyone who finds themselves in dire straights can find someone willing to voluntarily help. Some people need to turn to government programs for help. Government programs are impersonal and help people regardless of whether they have a pretty smile or are graciously penitant. If someone qualifies for help, such as having a handicap or being elderly (for example) and can't work any more they receive help. They don't need to go out on the streets and beg for a living, hoping to be lucky enough to find someone who will give them some help.
charities: if down & out get thee to a charity
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