Equality

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:19 am
When Jesus said "No one is good--except God alone." he surely referred to God as synonymous with Good i.e. absolutely good, whereas all Earthly creatures including Jesus himself are contingently good.
Another point I don’t understand—if Jesus was contingently good...
Let me suggest something else, if I may. The question, "Why are you calling me good?" can be understood as a probing question, rather than as merely a request for information.

In fact, the context invites that reading. Remember that the rich young ruler had just called Him "Good teacher." So Christ turns to him and asks, essentially, "I see; you are calling me good (and I am). But what motive in your heart made you choose to describe me this way?" And this makes sense of his follow-up comment as well: "There is none good save God alone." In other words, he's asking the rich young ruler, "Are you implying that you agree that I am God?" And this also makes sense of Christ's answer to him: "One thing you lack (in order to make your declaration of faith in me real); go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And follow me."

So the whole incident coheres if we understand Christ's question not as calling into doubt his own goodness, but as asking the rich young ruler why he, in particular, was choosing to call Christ that, especially when up to this point he hadn't been interested in Christ at all.

So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:19 am
When Jesus said "No one is good--except God alone." he surely referred to God as synonymous with Good i.e. absolutely good, whereas all Earthly creatures including Jesus himself are contingently good.
Another point I don’t understand—if Jesus was contingently good...
Let me suggest something else, if I may. The question, "Why are you calling me good?" can be understood as a probing question, rather than as merely a request for information.

In fact, the context invites that reading. Remember that the rich young ruler had just called Him "Good teacher." So Christ turns to him and asks, essentially, "I see; you are calling me good (and I am). But what motive in your heart made you choose to describe me this way?" And this makes sense of his follow-up comment as well: "There is none good save God alone." In other words, he's asking the rich young ruler, "Are you implying that you agree that I am God?" And this also makes sense of Christ's answer to him: "One thing you lack (in order to make your declaration of faith in me real); go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And follow me."

So the whole incident coheres if we understand Christ's question not as calling into doubt his own goodness, but as asking the rich young ruler why he, in particular, was choosing to call Christ that, especially when up to this point he hadn't been interested in Christ at all.

So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
Thanks. That was helpful.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:33 am Thanks. That was helpful.
You're most welcome.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
The first mention of the good in in Genesis 1. The darkness was there first and now there is just light and darkness. What is an objective day? The light is called good. What is the light and why is it good? Is it worth contemplating rather than analysing?

This is what I like bout the Bible. It can be read on many levels. Is this a meaningless passage to be ridiculed or does it conceal deep truths a person can open up to and begin to understand creation itself?
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:19 am
When Jesus said "No one is good--except God alone." he surely referred to God as synonymous with Good i.e. absolutely good, whereas all Earthly creatures including Jesus himself are contingently good.
Another point I don’t understand—if Jesus was contingently good...
Let me suggest something else, if I may. The question, "Why are you calling me good?" can be understood as a probing question, rather than as merely a request for information.

In fact, the context invites that reading. Remember that the rich young ruler had just called Him "Good teacher." So Christ turns to him and asks, essentially, "I see; you are calling me good (and I am). But what motive in your heart made you choose to describe me this way?" And this makes sense of his follow-up comment as well: "There is none good save God alone." In other words, he's asking the rich young ruler, "Are you implying that you agree that I am God?" And this also makes sense of Christ's answer to him: "One thing you lack (in order to make your declaration of faith in me real); go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And follow me."

So the whole incident coheres if we understand Christ's question not as calling into doubt his own goodness, but as asking the rich young ruler why he, in particular, was choosing to call Christ that, especially when up to this point he hadn't been interested in Christ at all.

So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
That is useful info, Immanuel.
However, your interpretation (which I accept) of the story is inconsistent with the injunction that to believe is sufficient to be saved .

I have been told that Xianity is a religion about believing stuff, while Islam and Judaism are religions mainly about doing religious rituals including formal charity etc. Obviously Jesus was not Paul, and the two can't be expected to speak with one voice.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Equality

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 am So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
That is useful info, Immanuel.
However, your interpretation (which I accept) of the story is inconsistent with the injunction that to believe is sufficient to be saved .
I don't think it is.

After all, when Jesus says, "You know what the Scripture says...", he's repeating to the rich young ruler what the rich young ruler has, up to this point believed, and thinks he also fully practiced...to keep the Law.

The rich young ruler isn't happy with that answer, though he thinks he's "done it since my youth,"as he says, meaning, "Since I was a kid, I was always a good guy. But I'm still anxious that I don't have eternal life."

"Not good enough," responds Jesus. "Give up all the stuff you're trusting in, and follow me."

And that, he cannot do. So he goes away.

Jesus Christ has always been the only way to salvation, and the Law never got the rich young ruler heaven...or even any peace of heart. And that's the message: real belief in Christ (that is, real, heartfelt, self-invested belief) guarantees heaven and brings peace; whereas, just working hard to keep the Law never does.

If there's any inconsistency there, I'm not seeing it.
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 am
commonsense wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:09 pm

Another point I don’t understand—if Jesus was contingently good...
Let me suggest something else, if I may. The question, "Why are you calling me good?" can be understood as a probing question, rather than as merely a request for information.

In fact, the context invites that reading. Remember that the rich young ruler had just called Him "Good teacher." So Christ turns to him and asks, essentially, "I see; you are calling me good (and I am). But what motive in your heart made you choose to describe me this way?" And this makes sense of his follow-up comment as well: "There is none good save God alone." In other words, he's asking the rich young ruler, "Are you implying that you agree that I am God?" And this also makes sense of Christ's answer to him: "One thing you lack (in order to make your declaration of faith in me real); go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And follow me."

So the whole incident coheres if we understand Christ's question not as calling into doubt his own goodness, but as asking the rich young ruler why he, in particular, was choosing to call Christ that, especially when up to this point he hadn't been interested in Christ at all.

So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
That is useful info, Immanuel.
However, your interpretation (which I accept) of the story is inconsistent with the injunction that to believe is sufficient to be saved .

I have been told that Xianity is a religion about believing stuff, while Islam and Judaism are religions mainly about doing religious rituals including formal charity etc. Obviously Jesus was not Paul, and the two can't be expected to speak with one voice.
Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
There is blind belief and there is eye opened active belief. But with eyes shut living in the darkness of Plato's cave, how can person open their eyes to know what to believe so to know what to do?
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:23 am
Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
The first mention of the good in in Genesis 1. The darkness was there first and now there is just light and darkness. What is an objective day? The light is called good. What is the light and why is it good? Is it worth contemplating rather than analysing?

This is what I like bout the Bible. It can be read on many levels. Is this a meaningless passage to be ridiculed or does it conceal deep truths a person can open up to and begin to understand creation itself?
As for me, I cannot contemplate without analyzing. I don’t ridicule the passage, but my mind questions many things.

Like why did evil come before good? Is good (light) secondary to evil (darkness)? Since the light and dark have been separated, are there no grey areas in life?

And did God come into existence beforehand or did God start at the same time as Heaven and Earth?

And if the Earth was formless waters, when did it form?
Belinda
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Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:18 am

Let me suggest something else, if I may. The question, "Why are you calling me good?" can be understood as a probing question, rather than as merely a request for information.

In fact, the context invites that reading. Remember that the rich young ruler had just called Him "Good teacher." So Christ turns to him and asks, essentially, "I see; you are calling me good (and I am). But what motive in your heart made you choose to describe me this way?" And this makes sense of his follow-up comment as well: "There is none good save God alone." In other words, he's asking the rich young ruler, "Are you implying that you agree that I am God?" And this also makes sense of Christ's answer to him: "One thing you lack (in order to make your declaration of faith in me real); go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And follow me."

So the whole incident coheres if we understand Christ's question not as calling into doubt his own goodness, but as asking the rich young ruler why he, in particular, was choosing to call Christ that, especially when up to this point he hadn't been interested in Christ at all.

So it was the rich young ruler's sincerity, not Christ's goodness, which was really the subject of doubt here.
That is useful info, Immanuel.
However, your interpretation (which I accept) of the story is inconsistent with the injunction that to believe is sufficient to be saved .

I have been told that Xianity is a religion about believing stuff, while Islam and Judaism are religions mainly about doing religious rituals including formal charity etc. Obviously Jesus was not Paul, and the two can't be expected to speak with one voice.
Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
There is blind belief and there is eye opened active belief. But with eyes shut living in the darkness of Plato's cave, how can person open their eyes to know what to believe so to know what to do?
That, Nick, is the human condition. Who or what you trust is for you to decide. I think the advice from Jesus "By their fruits you will know them" is good advice.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
commonsense
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Re: Equality

Post by commonsense »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:51 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:12 am
That is useful info, Immanuel.
However, your interpretation (which I accept) of the story is inconsistent with the injunction that to believe is sufficient to be saved .

I have been told that Xianity is a religion about believing stuff, while Islam and Judaism are religions mainly about doing religious rituals including formal charity etc. Obviously Jesus was not Paul, and the two can't be expected to speak with one voice.
Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
There is blind belief and there is eye opened active belief. But with eyes shut living in the darkness of Plato's cave, how can person open their eyes to know what to believe so to know what to do?
That, Nick, is the human condition. Who or what you trust is for you to decide. I think the advice from Jesus "By their fruits you will know them" is good advice.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, I’m wondering here, am I going to recognize corrupt false prophets by their deeds. Their deeds are deceptive, and I am just an ordinary person.
Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Equality

Post by Belinda »

commonsense wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:51 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:53 pm



There is blind belief and there is eye opened active belief. But with eyes shut living in the darkness of Plato's cave, how can person open their eyes to know what to believe so to know what to do?
That, Nick, is the human condition. Who or what you trust is for you to decide. I think the advice from Jesus "By their fruits you will know them" is good advice.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, I’m wondering here, am I going to recognize corrupt false prophets by their deeds. Their deeds are deceptive, and I am just an ordinary person.
Maybe not but what better can you do?
Nick_A
Posts: 5203
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:31 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:12 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:51 pm

That, Nick, is the human condition. Who or what you trust is for you to decide. I think the advice from Jesus "By their fruits you will know them" is good advice.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So, I’m wondering here, am I going to recognize corrupt false prophets by their deeds. Their deeds are deceptive, and I am just an ordinary person.
Maybe not but what better can you do?
What is the difference between the deeds of the Christ and the Antichrist. the AntiChrist has a beautiful message of peace and love and doing good deeds. What is wrong with it?
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