Defunding Police

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:47 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:37 am
And there are, of course, the "anarchists" who tend to be very critical toward any and all authority and "libertarians" who seem to tend more toward favoring freedom over liberty.
Why do you differentiate freedom and liberty?
Good question... :thumbsup:
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Sculptor
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by Sculptor »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:47 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:37 am
And there are, of course, the "anarchists" who tend to be very critical toward any and all authority and "libertarians" who seem to tend more toward favoring freedom over liberty.
Why do you differentiate freedom and liberty?
Pretty obvious.
Freedom is anarchy. Liberty is more formal.
Libertarianism might talk about liberty but what it offers is freedom and therefore anarchy.
Democracy (if you can find it), though it exists in small portions offers liberty of the people, not liberty for the establishment.
Liberty has to be protected by the system; freedom is a free for all.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by Arising_uk »

Do we have to keep importing this American nonsense into our politics. We did all this in the 80s and 90s the States are so backward.
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henry quirk
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by henry quirk »

Freedom...

...the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.

...absence of subjection to foreign domination or despotic government.


Liberty...

...the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views.

...the power or scope to act as one pleases.


I ain't seein' the dfference.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by RCSaunders »

Arising_uk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:16 pm Do we have to keep importing this American nonsense into our politics. We did all this in the 80s and 90s the States are so backward.
Who is, "we?"
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henry quirk
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by henry quirk »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:13 pm
Arising_uk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:16 pm Do we have to keep importing this American nonsense into our politics. We did all this in the 80s and 90s the States are so backward.
Who is, "we?"
Some of the Brits.

PNF is a Brit endeavor...some don't care for the 'murican intrusion.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:20 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:13 pm
Arising_uk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:16 pm Do we have to keep importing this American nonsense into our politics. We did all this in the 80s and 90s the States are so backward.
Who is, "we?"
Some of the Brits.

PNF is a Brit endeavor...some don't care for the 'murican intrusion.
I suspected that, but my real question is about his use of the word, "we," which either means he thinks he speaks for all UKites or is a member of some collective. I suspect the latter. Collectivists universally despise the idea that some individuals actually choose to think for themselves.
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henry quirk
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by henry quirk »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:20 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:13 pm
Who is, "we?"
Some of the Brits.

PNF is a Brit endeavor...some don't care for the 'murican intrusion.
I suspected that, but my real question is about his use of the word, "we," which either means he thinks he speaks for all UKites or is a member of some collective. I suspect the latter. Collectivists universally despise the idea that some individuals actually choose to think for themselves.
I don't think it's all that sinister: we, in context, probably just refers to we here in-forum.
Gary Childress
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by Gary Childress »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:47 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:37 am
And there are, of course, the "anarchists" who tend to be very critical toward any and all authority and "libertarians" who seem to tend more toward favoring freedom over liberty.
Why do you differentiate freedom and liberty?
I was using it to differentiate between liberty from (generally oppression and tyranny) and freedom as freedom to do (generally as one pleases). I think seeking to liberate people from oppression and seeking to give people the freedom to do as they please can be subtly different in some ways--freedom being a bit broader than liberty. But the two words are otherwise obviously very close in meaning.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:47 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:37 am
And there are, of course, the "anarchists" who tend to be very critical toward any and all authority and "libertarians" who seem to tend more toward favoring freedom over liberty.
Why do you differentiate freedom and liberty?
I was using it to differentiate between liberty from (generally oppression and tyranny) and freedom as freedom to do (generally as one pleases). I think seeking to liberate people from oppression and seeking to give people the freedom to do as they please can be subtly different in some ways--freedom being a bit broader than liberty. But the two words are otherwise obviously very close in meaning.
That's a fair distinction, though the words themselves don't necessarily contain it.

I think your way of putting it...freedom from, versus freedom to...makes the distinction better, Gary.

"Freedom from" sums up most of the kinds of rights a government can legitimately provide...freedom from harm, freedom from interference, freedom from theft, freedom from invasion, and so forth.

"Freedom to" is harder. A government can secure the neutral conditions wherein a person can act to achieve his ambition to do something if he chooses to act on it, but if he lacks the ambition to do it for himself, there's not an easy solution to that. So, for example, a government can aid in providing equal opportunity, but has no unauthoritarian and non-invasive way of assuring equality of outcome.

In other words, the government can work to secure the right for every person to have a fair chance at securing a job; but how well that person will advocate for himself, how well he will choose to educate himself, how hard he will work, how many days he will show up at work, how long he will stay, how much he will produce, and how many promotions he will secure for himself...those things the government can't try to equalize without having to force his employer to reward bad self-advocacy, low education, low initiative, and low ambition....and hence to do things that erode the employers' legitimate profit margins, undermine the corporate culture of diligence and its system of incentives, and thus destroy the employers own business. And doing that requires the government to violate the employers' right to freedom from interference.

So "freedom to" has to largely be left up to the individual. And outcomes can never be guaranteed, without regard for what was done by the choices of the individual to produce that outcome.
commonsense
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:48 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:47 pm

Why do you differentiate freedom and liberty?
I was using it to differentiate between liberty from (generally oppression and tyranny) and freedom as freedom to do (generally as one pleases). I think seeking to liberate people from oppression and seeking to give people the freedom to do as they please can be subtly different in some ways--freedom being a bit broader than liberty. But the two words are otherwise obviously very close in meaning.
That's a fair distinction, though the words themselves don't necessarily contain it.

I think your way of putting it...freedom from, versus freedom to...makes the distinction better, Gary.

"Freedom from" sums up most of the kinds of rights a government can legitimately provide...freedom from harm, freedom from interference, freedom from theft, freedom from invasion, and so forth.

"Freedom to" is harder. A government can secure the neutral conditions wherein a person can act to achieve his ambition to do something if he chooses to act on it, but if he lacks the ambition to do it for himself, there's not an easy solution to that. So, for example, a government can aid in providing equal opportunity, but has no unauthoritarian and non-invasive way of assuring equality of outcome.

In other words, the government can work to secure the right for every person to have a fair chance at securing a job; but how well that person will advocate for himself, how well he will choose to educate himself, how hard he will work, how many days he will show up at work, how long he will stay, how much he will produce, and how many promotions he will secure for himself...those things the government can't try to equalize without having to force his employer to reward bad self-advocacy, low education, low initiative, and low ambition....and hence to do things that erode the employers' legitimate profit margins, undermine the corporate culture of diligence and its system of incentives, and thus destroy the employers own business. And doing that requires the government to violate the employers' right to freedom from interference.
So "freedom to" has to largely be left up to the individual. And outcomes can never be guaranteed, without regard for what was done by the choices of the individual to produce that outcome.
Couldn’t freedom to be offered by a government via an absence of proscriptions against something?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by Immanuel Can »

commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:59 pm Couldn’t freedom to be offered by a government via an absence of proscriptions against something?
Well, yes...but that's by way of allowing or facilitating the individual to have conditions to act, if he so chooses; not by way of attempting to guarantee that the individual must act, and not guaranteeing the outcome of his action.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:45 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:20 pm

Some of the Brits.

PNF is a Brit endeavor...some don't care for the 'murican intrusion.
I suspected that, but my real question is about his use of the word, "we," which either means he thinks he speaks for all UKites or is a member of some collective. I suspect the latter. Collectivists universally despise the idea that some individuals actually choose to think for themselves.
I don't think it's all that sinister: we, in context, probably just refers to we here in-forum.
Perhaps, but I didn't get that from the context which was, "Do we have to keep importing this American nonsense into our politics. We did all this in the 80s and 90s the States are so backward." That doesn't seem to be referring to the forum, does it?

It's definitely not worth arguing, though. We can just see it differently and the drinks are on me.
commonsense
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by commonsense »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:02 pm
commonsense wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:59 pm Couldn’t freedom to be offered by a government via an absence of proscriptions against something?
Well, yes...but that's by way of allowing or facilitating the individual to have conditions to act, if he so chooses; not by way of attempting to guarantee that the individual must act, and not guaranteeing the outcome of his action.
That makes sense.
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Re: Defunding Police

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:20 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:13 pm
Who is, "we?"
Some of the Brits.

PNF is a Brit endeavor...some don't care for the 'murican intrusion.
I suspected that, but my real question is about his use of the word, "we," which either means he thinks he speaks for all UKites or is a member of some collective. I suspect the latter. Collectivists universally despise the idea that some individuals actually choose to think for themselves.
You think for yourself? You, who calls anyone you don't agree with a 'commie'? Now, that's not typically American AT ALL :lol: :lol: :lol:
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