Portrait of an American Hero

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Sculptor
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:47 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:26 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:21 pm
That's the funniest thing you've said yet. :D
That is only because of your crass ignorance.
No, no...inform me more. I need to be taught.

Who is it who put Marx into practice, and where did it work out without all the death and economic suicide? Would you point to Cuba? Venezuela? China? North Korea? Angola? Bulgaria? Do tell me just where Marx has "blessed" this world with his wisdom...in what sunny land has he brought forth happiness, equality and prosperity for all... :D
And tell me, where is it that Jesus was put into practice? and where did it work out without all the death and social suicide, and oppression?
Do tell me just where Jesus has "blessed" this world with his wisdom...in what sunny land has he brought forth happiness, equality and love for all
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 pm And tell me, where is it that Jesus was put into practice?
Wherever He has been, it's always been a benefit....social betterment, prison reform, anti-slavery initiatives, medical missions, charitable causes, business ethics, children's rights, women's rights, and human rights generally, hospitals, educational programs and institutions, universities, labour reforms, poor relief, and in fact, the entire Western achievement including the scientific method....the list is long and august.

But where has Karl Marx brought benefit? Where has he made people anything but poor and dead?
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Sculptor
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 pm And tell me, where is it that Jesus was put into practice?
Wherever He has been, it's always been a benefit....social betterment, prison reform, anti-slavery initiatives, medical missions, charitable causes, business ethics, children's rights, women's rights, and human rights generally, hospitals, educational programs and institutions, universities, labour reforms, poor relief, and in fact, the entire Western achievement including the scientific method....the list is long and august.

But where has Karl Marx brought benefit? Where has he made people anything but poor and dead?
Jesus validated slavery. Just wash my feet bitch!
Jesus justified feudalism, war, monarchy, child abuse, exploitation, class structure, in fact every evil you mention was begun through Jesus and in the name of Jesus. Jesus creates the poor, then relieves them.
You are a joke.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:27 pm Jesus justified feudalism...
Heh. :D

You know nothing. Not only don't you know what Jesus said, or what feudalism etc. mean, but most remarkably, not even anything about Karl Marx.

I see I'm speaking into a hollow vessel. I shall desist.
uwot
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Jesus, you're slow.

Post by uwot »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 pm And tell me, where is it that Jesus was put into practice?
Wherever He has been, it's always been a benefit....social betterment, prison reform, anti-slavery initiatives, medical missions, charitable causes, business ethics, children's rights, women's rights, and human rights generally, hospitals, educational programs and institutions, universities, labour reforms, poor relief, and in fact, the entire Western achievement including the scientific method....the list is long and august.
So if Jesus is responsible for all the goodies you mention, why did it take until the 19th century after his death for most of the things you mention to come about?
surreptitious57
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Re: Jesus, you're slow.

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
the entire Western achievement including the scientific method
The Greek mathematician Thales [ 620 BC - 546 BC ] invented the scientific method
And so Jesus [ 4 BC - 29 AD ] had nothing to do with it and never mentioned it at all
Dubious
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:38 pm And tell me, where is it that Jesus was put into practice?
Wherever He has been, it's always been a benefit....social betterment, prison reform, anti-slavery initiatives, medical missions, charitable causes, business ethics, children's rights, women's rights, and human rights generally, hospitals, educational programs and institutions, universities, labour reforms, poor relief, and in fact, the entire Western achievement including the scientific method....the list is long and august.

But where has Karl Marx brought benefit? Where has he made people anything but poor and dead?
It was through the Enlightenment - not that it was invariably enlightened - that these achievements came about fighting divine rights and church tyranny whose mandate had Jesus at its center. But pro or con, Jesus himself had nothing to do with it. He can't be praised or blamed for any of it direct or indirectly. Every item you list came about as a response against the old order in its Medieval manifestations; only by secular transformation was that accomplished.
surreptitious57
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
the list is long and august
Speaking of august it was Saint Augustine who introduced Christianity to England
Which he did by forcing the pagan population to convert or else be put to death
surreptitious57
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Re: Jesus, you're slow.

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wherever He has been
Jesus only came for the Jews and no one else and so his message was not meant for the Gentiles
All of the prophets before him only came for some also but only Mohammad came for everyone

And so when Christians claim Jesus came for all of mankind this is completely false
Mohammad would have had no reason to come if Jesus already came for everyone
surreptitious57
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Re: Jesus, you're slow.

Post by surreptitious57 »

Immanuel Can wrote:
the entire Western achievement including the scientific method
The Greeks as well as inventing the scientific method also invented democracy as well
And it is the single greatest achievement of Western civilisation and of any civilisation
And once again Jesus had absolutely nothing to with it as it predated him by centuries
surreptitious57
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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So at least two of the foundations of the West [ knowledge / democracy ] came from polytheism not Christianity
The Greeks were also doing very excellent philosophy centuries before Jesus was born and so that is another one
surreptitious57
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

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Western Civilisation Pre Christianity

Law - History - Science - Theatre - Aesthetics

Philosophy - Democracy - Mathematics - Architecture
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jesus, you're slow.

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surreptitious57 wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:56 pm The Greek mathematician Thales [ 620 BC - 546 BC ] invented the scientific method
Nope. Francis Bacon, who was not just a leading scientist but a Christian theologian and writer. https://www.famousscientists.org/francis-bacon/

Thales was a pre-scientific speculator -- for example, he thought everything was composed of water -- but he lacked the essential methodology to test his hypotheses. Clever man, yes; not the father of the scientific method.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Portrait of an American Hero

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:04 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
the list is long and august
Speaking of august it was Saint Augustine...
Quote where he learned his conduct from Christ.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jesus, you're slow.

Post by Immanuel Can »

surreptitious57 wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:15 am Jesus only came for the Jews and no one else and so his message was not meant for the Gentiles
Not remotely true. Jesus Christ was indeed a Jew, and his first appeal was indeed to Jews; but his commission after his resurrection was for his disciples to "go into the world and preach the gospel..." And so Peter and his disciples fanned out and preached to the Gentiles of many nations, and the early Christians quickly became a mixture of Jews and Gentiles.
All of the prophets before him only came for some also but only Mohammad came for everyone
Heh. Mohammed "came for everyone" with a sword.

But he couldn't have been a prophet to the world, because, as Muslims insist, the Koran can only be read aright in Arabic. And if that's so, then it's untranslatable, and can't be shared with the world. So Mohammed was only a prophet to Arabic speakers...his alleged "miracle," proving his bona fides, the Koran, can't even be perceived by others.

Ironically, Mohammed proclaimed Christ a prophet. And if that's so, then he undermined his own credibility.
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