Extinction Rebellion

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Sculptor
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Sculptor » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:39 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:29 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:25 pm
You are just responding with racism.
Super cowardly. The "R" card is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt. What's more, if you had any real idea, you'd be ashamed of that claim.

But in point of fact, I'm advocating FOR Asia here. They have a right to their industrialization...and if we don't help out, we have no right to complain at them.
Americans' consumption is ever growing, and showing no signs of abating. Their government is in a state of climate denial. What's to say that their poor own poor shall continue to press for more and more?

China and the UK have moderate consumption, whose to say that will increase? Chinese people are pro-bicycle. I see no reason for that to stop. The UK, even under the Tories has takes climate change more seriously than most countries. And when China decides that CC is a priority the solution will be done.

Wealth always percolates upwards, and the poorer nations catch the overspill. The USA consumer market is the chief driver of the Chinese export market. As oil declines, the price will increase away from the reach of poorer nations, Americans seem to have no limit to their greed.
North American remains the problem.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:57 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:39 pm
Americans' consumption is ever growing, and showing no signs of abating. Their government is in a state of climate denial. What's to say that their poor own poor shall continue to press for more and more?
Nothing.
China and the UK have moderate consumption,
Heh. Moderate only compared to where it's going and what it will be. Not moderate as countries go.
whose to say that will increase?

The Chinese and the Indians are saying it loud and clear, right now. More than that, they're acting on it. Beijing, for example, is an air quality disaster area because of it. People in the streets of Shanghai cough up gobs of black smudge because of it. China's car ownership just reached 172 million, not counting motorcycles, and trucks...most of which are unconverted diesel. That won't be the end of it.
And when China decides that CC is a priority the solution will be done.
You'll wait a long tome for the Communists to decide that CC is more in their interest than world economic and ideological domination. You haven't seen them rushing to the table, have you?

Go see a Developing World country. You clearly never have. Until you do, you just have no idea.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Gary Childress » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:27 pm

The lobby's not talking about sustainable energy for China or India. Nobody seems to care about that...least of all, their governments, but even the environmentalists don't care about that.
Environmentalists don't care about sustainable energy? Since when?
Greta Thunberg is one little girl.

Yes: one sad, exploited, mentally-ill little girl, trotted out like a show pony by the environmentalists.

Have they no shame?
I don't know if she's being "trotted out like a show pony". Some people are inspired by her, it's true, but there's no need to focus so much on her. In any case the people dishing out the most verbal abuse toward her seem to be climate skeptics.
People are taking all over the world about climate change, including people in Southeast Asia.
You overestimate how much the Developing World cares about climate. And I don't blame them. If it comes to a question of feeding their families, improving their health, providing for their education, or getting your own folks ahead in the world, on the one hand, or pleasing the rich in the West, on the other, why should they care? We wouldn't. And that's exactly what they're facing.

What's more, all that we want them NOT to do is exactly what we already HAVE done. So they have every right to ask us why we want to hold them back and cripple their economies, when we had no hesitation about getting ourselves ahead by any means necessary.

Good question. We don't hold the moral high ground here.
They care enough that China and India were signatories of the Paris Accord.

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Sculptor
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Sculptor » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:57 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:39 pm
Americans' consumption is ever growing, and showing no signs of abating. Their government is in a state of climate denial. What's to say that their poor own poor shall continue to press for more and more?
Nothing.
China and the UK have moderate consumption,
Heh. Moderate only compared to where it's going and what it will be. Not moderate as countries go.
Not really.
Third world aside UK and China are under average for carbon footprint.
If you are going to be a bigot, you need to support your facts.
whose to say that will increase?

The Chinese and the Indians are saying it loud and clear, right now.
More bollocks

And when China decides that CC is a priority the solution will be done.
You'll wait a long tome for the Communists to decide that CC is more in their interest than world economic and ideological domination. You haven't seen them rushing to the table, have you?
When China decides; China acts.

Go see a Developing World country. You clearly never have. Until you do, you just have no idea.
I've been to Egypt, Morocco, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Dominican Republic - I image they fit into your category?
What I saw is people struggling to get a few dollars to survive, whilst the West steal their natural resources; land grab; exploit. Whether it comes in the form of computer parts, trainers, or every thing from toothbrushes to cups and plates. Most of China's crbin footprint is simply to serve the West.
It's difficult to talk to an idiot.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:18 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 pm
Environmentalists don't care about sustainable energy? Since when?
No. They don't care about Asian sustainable energy. They care about it lots in the West. They let Asia go to pieces on it.
I don't know if she's being "trotted out like a show pony".

I do. I understand her mental illnesses and her vulnerability. That's one exploited little kid. I'm totally sympathetic with her, and disgusted by her parents and her "handlers." They are evil, because they're using her vulnerability for their own purposes. As for her, she's a cute kid...but very needy, and not at all well.
They care enough that China and India were signatories of the Paris Accord.
A signature is very, very cheap. It's worth about three inches of ink. Go look at what they're actually doing, and then tell me what that signature is worth.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Gary Childress » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:18 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:00 pm
Environmentalists don't care about sustainable energy? Since when?
No. They don't care about Asian sustainable energy. They care about it lots in the West. They let Asia go to pieces on it.
I don't know if she's being "trotted out like a show pony".

I do. I understand her mental illnesses and her vulnerability. That's one exploited little kid. I'm totally sympathetic with her, and disgusted by her parents and her "handlers." They are evil, because they're using her vulnerability for their own purposes. As for her, she's a cute kid...but very needy, and not at all well.
They care enough that China and India were signatories of the Paris Accord.
A signature is very, very cheap. It's worth about three inches of ink. Go look at what they're actually doing, and then tell me what that signature is worth.
Well, your mind seems to be made up so I suspect nothing I say is going to make a difference. I think you're being stubborn and unfair to many in the environmental movement. Yes, there are extremists and other bad actors, the whole spectrum but there are also thoughtful and conscientious people in the movement. The same thing probably applies to climate skeptics.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:59 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Well, your mind seems to be made up so I suspect nothing I say is going to make a difference.
My mind's made up only in the way knowing something "makes up" a mind. The evidence is clear, if you travel in the Developing World, or if one can read the statistics in southeast Asia. It's not a feeling or an opinion...it's the evidence, in this case.
...there are also thoughtful and conscientious people in the movement.
I did not say there weren't.

But I would say that somebody who campaigns for reforms in the West and ignores Asia is either ignorant of demographics and statistics in Asia, or else is making a Eurocentric mistake. That happens often enough: we think that what we decide is always determinative of world history...but this time, it' isn't. There's a whole other world out there, on the other side of the globe; and what those people do -- seeing as there are far more of them than of us -- is going to be far more environmentally significant than the number of windmills and recycling boxes we put in the West.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Gary Childress » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:18 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:59 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:45 am
Well, your mind seems to be made up so I suspect nothing I say is going to make a difference.
My mind's made up only in the way knowing something "makes up" a mind. The evidence is clear, if you travel in the Developing World, or if one can read the statistics in southeast Asia. It's not a feeling or an opinion...it's the evidence, in this case.
...there are also thoughtful and conscientious people in the movement.
I did not say there weren't.

But I would say that somebody who campaigns for reforms in the West and ignores Asia is either ignorant of demographics and statistics in Asia, or else is making a Eurocentric mistake. That happens often enough: we think that what we decide is always determinative of world history...but this time, it' isn't. There's a whole other world out there, on the other side of the globe; and what those people do -- seeing as there are far more of them than of us -- is going to be far more environmentally significant than the number of windmills and recycling boxes we put in the West.
What good is it going to do for a westerner to campaign for China to make cuts to its carbon output? China does what it wants. People can affect politics in their own countries much easier than they can others. Why should westerners waste our time campaigning over China? If we can petition our own governments to make good faith cuts, in our own emissions, that's probably the best way to get China and others to reciprocate. Certainly making no effort at all and then demanding that China curtail its carbon output isn't going to have any effect on them.

Or are you saying that we should all (East and West) continue to go all out and keep increasing our carbon output and do nothing?

And if you are really so worried about Greta Thunberg why not denounce those people on the right who seem to be hurling insults and mockery at her? I would think that is much more emotionally damaging for her than whatever people on the left are doing to her.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:59 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:18 am
What good is it going to do for a westerner to campaign for China to make cuts to its carbon output? China does what it wants.
That's exactly right. The problem is political, at the moment, not just a matter of generating sufficient panic in the West.
People can affect politics in their own countries much easier than they can others.
Right. They can.
Why should westerners waste our time campaigning over China?

Because if we don't, and human beings are causing the climate change, then we're doomed. Sheer numbers will make anything we do merely symbolic. But worse still, as we cripple our economies, Asia will pick up the slack. While we slap carbon taxes on our economy, they will have none. And while we have pollution controls, monitors and limits, they do not.

What we'll do is accelerate climate destruction by shifting the whole problem east.

The only solution is to address the political situation in the east, so we can address the environmental issues worldwide. There are no shortcuts here, if we're actually serious about getting change to happen. Anybody who pretends we can just make such elaborate gestures that the Developing World will fall over with admiration and do the same is quite delusional, really.
If we can petition our own governments to make good faith cuts, in our own emissions, that's probably the best way to get China and others to reciprocate.
Heh. You really think the Chinese government cares? Don't kid yourself about that. They don't care what we do.
And if you are really so worried about Greta Thunberg why not denounce those people on the right who seem to be hurling insults and mockery at her?
I'm on her side...against her "managers" and "handlers." She should be in school, at home, and getting the help she needs. The kid's autistic, as well as anorexic and full of chronic, irrational anxiety hyped up by her promoters.

Sure, people shouldn't mock her. I agree. But "the right" didn't turn her into their show pony and then drag her around the world. That was the environmental Leftists who did that. Shame on them.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Gary Childress » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:45 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:59 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:18 am
What good is it going to do for a westerner to campaign for China to make cuts to its carbon output? China does what it wants.
That's exactly right. The problem is political, at the moment, not just a matter of generating sufficient panic in the West.
People can affect politics in their own countries much easier than they can others.
Right. They can.
Why should westerners waste our time campaigning over China?

Because if we don't, and human beings are causing the climate change, then we're doomed. Sheer numbers will make anything we do merely symbolic. But worse still, as we cripple our economies, Asia will pick up the slack. While we slap carbon taxes on our economy, they will have none. And while we have pollution controls, monitors and limits, they do not.

What we'll do is accelerate climate destruction by shifting the whole problem east.

The only solution is to address the political situation in the east, so we can address the environmental issues worldwide. There are no shortcuts here, if we're actually serious about getting change to happen. Anybody who pretends we can just make such elaborate gestures that the Developing World will fall over with admiration and do the same is quite delusional, really.
If we can petition our own governments to make good faith cuts, in our own emissions, that's probably the best way to get China and others to reciprocate.
Heh. You really think the Chinese government cares? Don't kid yourself about that. They don't care what we do.
That remains to be seen. We don't know until we make good faith concessions. So far China has signed the Paris Accord and is making attempts to limit its emissions to targets agreed upon in the accords. Us backing out is probably not going to help. In fact, it sort of makes us the ones who "don't care" and the Chinese shouldn't kid themselves about us.
And if you are really so worried about Greta Thunberg why not denounce those people on the right who seem to be hurling insults and mockery at her?
I'm on her side...against her "managers" and "handlers." She should be in school, at home, and getting the help she needs. The kid's autistic, as well as anorexic and full of chronic, irrational anxiety hyped up by her promoters.

Sure, people shouldn't mock her. I agree. But "the right" didn't turn her into their show pony and then drag her around the world. That was the environmental Leftists who did that. Shame on them.
What do you mean by "managers" and "handlers"? Are you referring to her father, who travels with her? If that's the case, then why not say "her parents". "Handlers" makes it sound like you think she's a monkey or something. Animals have "handlers", humans have "parents", "friends" or "associates". And according to the AP Thunberg has been traveling with her father and doesn't have "handlers".

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:10 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:59 am
You really think the Chinese government cares? Don't kid yourself about that. They don't care what we do.
That remains to be seen.
Well, I'm just speaking about what China has already done, and is already doing. Their abominable human rights record is highly criticized, both by their own (ex-)citizens and by the free world. But it hasn't made a dent in their policies. Look at what they're doing in Hong Kong right now...and that's in a separate island that is under heavy Western scrutiny...they really don't care.
What do you mean by "managers" and "handlers"? Are you referring to her father, who travels with her? If that's the case, then why not say "her parents". "Handlers" makes it sound like you think she's a monkey or something.
Well, look at the facts, and see if her "parents" are behaving like real parents, or more like handlers.

Greta started leaving school and manifesting severe anxiety, depression and obsessiveness at age 15. She was already overwhelmed with fear, manifesting anorexia and acting dysfunctionally and irrationally for her age.

Age 15. :shock: Think of that.

Go and look at a 15 year old, and tell me if you would look to such a child to, say, diagnose your cancer, or build you a bridge, or manage your investments...all tasks that are far less complex than solving the environmental crisis. Is a 15 year old a fount of knowledge? Is she mature? Does she understand the world in a way comparable even to a 16 or 17 year old, let alone an adult? Can she even control her own emotions?

So how would this 15 year old, troubled child end up being kept out of school and normal childhood activities, and being paraded around the world as a spokesperson for the other children to whom she admittedly cannot relate, and providing information to adults she manifestly doesn't like, on a topic she quite evidently doesn't understand at any reasonable level? Would it be her idea?

And where would her anxiety come from? How does a 15 year old know all the paranoid phrases of adult environmental extremists? Who would put her int the public spotlight? Do you suppose all this was a product of her 15 year old's wisdom and initiative? Of course not.

She's 17 now. Two years have been lost to her development in the weirdest way. She'll never recover a normal childhood now. But her so-called "parents" aren't watching for that. the last thing they care about is Greta's normalcy. They want her as abnormal, and as publicly abnormal, as they can get her.

Her parents are behaving like "handlers," not like parents. They're using her to get publicity for their political aims. And when they're done with her, what will happen to Greta? When she's not cute and childlike anymore, who will care what she says or does? And what will that do to her self-image, when she finally figures out she's not the "Person of the Year," anymore, but just an unremarkable, sad and mentally ill person whom nobody has helped? What then?

Poor Greta. Anyone can see she's not an oracle. She's not a savant. She's certainly not an expert in anything. And she's not a supergirl. There's no reason found in Greta that she should be on the world stage at all, anymore than any other person. She's merely a symbol -- a cute, scared, angry, immature and clueless kid, who has no idea of how she's being manipulated, and no coping skills with which to resist it.

What about her normal development? What about her childhood? What about her education? What about her privacy, and not exposing her to the world? Who's protecting Greta? Nobody. Instead, the Left is celebrating child exploitation because Greta looks better on camera than most of them do. She's useful to them. But she's no expert in anything, and they don't want an expert anyway. What they want is a symbol.

So "parents"? Those are "parents" only if there are only genetic and not behavioural criteria for being a parent. They're "handlers," a PR team, managers of the image of the child they're exploiting. Nothing more.

And again I say, shame on them. And, I would add, shame on anyone who encourages them and celebrates what they are doing to Greta.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion = bullshit

Post by uwot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:10 pm
So "parents"? Those are "parents" only if there are only genetic and not behavioural criteria for being a parent. They're "handlers," a PR team, managers of the image of the child they're exploiting. Nothing more.

And again I say, shame on them. And, I would add, shame on anyone who encourages them and celebrates what they are doing to Greta.
Mr Can, you believe that sending your only begotten son to Earth, to be nailed to a cross for a PR stunt is the act of a "Supreme being". I really don't think you are qualified to make judgements on parental guidance.

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henry quirk
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plant some goddamned trees, why don't ya

Post by henry quirk » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:46 pm

If my 13 year old went off on a rant about man causin' climate change, I'd listen to him, dismantle his position, make him do his homework, then drive him to school the next day.

-----

Earth's atmosphere: 5.5 quadrillion tons

*Estimated amount of extra, human-generated co2 introduced in to the atmosphere, annually: 40 billion tons

Most of this comparatively small amount is caught by trees, a natural, renewing, **carbon trap.

The climate changes. This is natural and normal. Man ain't causin' diddly.

If co2 bugs you: plant trees, leave economies alone.









*by folks with an interest in promotin' human-driven climate emergencies

**3 trillion trees trappin' and transforming an estimated 30 billion tons of co2 annually
Last edited by henry quirk on Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:00 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:46 pm
If co2 bugs you: plant trees, leave economies alone.
Western Environmentalist: "The globe is warming...we think we caused it."

Sane Person: "Wow...what do you think we should do?"

Western Environmentalist: "Cripple the economy in all countries with pollution controls."

Sane Person: "Um...Well, we've got the best pollution controls, and we're developing the new technologies. If we cut back on supplying what the world wants, won't that mean that the countries without pollution controls will seize the opportunity to pollute more and worse?"

Western Environmentalist: "No. They'll see our economic suicide as a great and noble symbolic sacrifice, realize that we are morally better than them, feel bad, and copy us."

Sane Person: "I'm not so sure that's what they'll do. What if they don't?"

Western Environmentalist: "What? You don't care about the environment? Or are you a racist? You louse!"

Sane Person: "Um...I'm going to get a pizza."

Western Environmentalist: "Typical consumer. I'm off to the Greta rally, so I can learn from a 15 year old."

uwot
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Re: Extinction Rebellion

Post by uwot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:23 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:46 pm
The climate changes. This is natural and normal. Man ain't causin' diddly.
The point is, can we do diddly?

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