Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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henry quirk
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:39 pm

uwot wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:43 pm
You really need three.
Hoowee! I had no idea being god was so complicated. Ok then, number two: Don't let anyone nail your children to crosses. Three: For fuck's sake do not believe that people who lived 2000 years before you knew more about how the world works than you possibly could.
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:43 pm
It's civil war.
Well yeah, we're all in the same universe.
Here's my 3 (which I actually think are already in play)...

The individual owns himself.

The individual has a right to his life, liberty, and property.

The individual's life, liberty, or property is only forfeit (in part or in whole) when he willingly, knowingly, deprives (in part or in whole) another of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.

My Golden Rule (the informal summation of the 3): Mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself...or else.

#

A big friggin' place: how sad we refuse to get out into it.

Impenitent
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Impenitent » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:47 pm

is his labor his property?

-Imp

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henry quirk
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:47 pm
is his labor his property?

-Imp
Yes, as well as what naturally results, or extends, from his labor.

And her labor (and the rugrat too) is his (if he's the one done planted that seed).

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:17 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:47 pm
is his labor his property?

-Imp
Yes, as well as what naturally results, or extends, from his labor.

And her labor (and the rugrat too) is his (if he's the one done planted that seed).
Labour is an exchange of time for money.

For someone to take that money, then, is for him to take that for which you gave up your time. Time is infinitely precious, however, since you can trade your time for money, but can't trade any money for more time; and you only have a limited amount of time in your life.

Taking someone's wages is thus a theft of his life. Socialism puts the redistribution of your life in the hands of others. It steals life from you, by taking the money for which you voluntarily gave up your time.

Belinda
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:38 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:17 am
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:47 pm
is his labor his property?

-Imp
Yes, as well as what naturally results, or extends, from his labor.

And her labor (and the rugrat too) is his (if he's the one done planted that seed).
Labour is an exchange of time for money.

For someone to take that money, then, is for him to take that for which you gave up your time. Time is infinitely precious, however, since you can trade your time for money, but can't trade any money for more time; and you only have a limited amount of time in your life.

Taking someone's wages is thus a theft of his life. Socialism puts the redistribution of your life in the hands of others. It steals life from you, by taking the money for which you voluntarily gave up your time.
All that is true but it's not the whole of the truth. The owners of the business who supplied the capital for the business deserve some of the profits. The labourers who together with management, raw material, and plant, are necesssary expenses , should be able to bargain not only for wages in return for their lives' energy but also for a share of the profits.

How do I justify profit sharing? 1. The labourers will suffer alongside the owners if the business fails.

2. Profit sharing incentivises the labourers and so benefits the product, the management, and the owners.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:07 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:38 am
The labourers who together with management, raw material, and plant, are necesssary expenses , should be able to bargain not only for wages in return for their lives' energy but also for a share of the profits.
No, there's no necessity of that. A fair wage for a fair days work is fair. It's equitable, stable, secure and low-risk.

The profits should go to the person who took the risk of investing in creating, and now bears the burden of maintaining, the means of production; the workers did not do that.
Profit sharing incentivises the labourers and so benefits the product, the management, and the owners.
That's optional. The workers did not produce the initial capital, and they didn't assume any risk. So while optional, nominal profit sharing could be a helpful tool, it can't be mandated. If it is, it disincentivizes inventors, entrepreneurs and investors from creating the jobs in the first place.

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henry quirk
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:17 am
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:47 pm
is his labor his property?

-Imp
Yes, as well as what naturally results, or extends, from his labor.

And her labor (and the rugrat too) is his (if he's the one done planted that seed).
Labour is an exchange of time for money.

For someone to take that money, then, is for him to take that for which you gave up your time. Time is infinitely precious, however, since you can trade your time for money, but can't trade any money for more time; and you only have a limited amount of time in your life.

Taking someone's wages is thus a theft of his life. Socialism puts the redistribution of your life in the hands of others. It steals life from you, by taking the money for which you voluntarily gave up your time.
Even more egregious: When I work to clear a plot for my own use, askin' for no assist, acceptin' no assist, and the tax man demands money. Property taxes, when the property has benefited only from my labor, when the community hasn't had to drop a dime in the purchase, clearin', and upkeep, are just theft, plain and simple.

Belinda
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm

Immanuel Can wrote against workers' sharing profits:
No, there's no necessity of that. A fair wage for a fair days work is fair. It's equitable, stable, secure and low-risk.
What if the workers can't afford to buy what they produce?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:43 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm
What if the workers can't afford to buy what they produce?
  • What happens if the workers in a Ferrari company can't each afford a Ferrari? Nothing.
  • What happens if people in a grocery company can't afford groceries? Then their wages are below subsistence, and they should refuse to work for such a wage.
You'd have to give more particulars before it would be clear whether we were dealing with a situation in which there was some genuine injustice, or none at all. The first case is perfectly reasonable; the second is the issue, perhaps.

Belinda
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:43 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:16 pm
What if the workers can't afford to buy what they produce?
  • What happens if the workers in a Ferrari company can't each afford a Ferrari? Nothing.
  • What happens if people in a grocery company can't afford groceries? Then their wages are below subsistence, and they should refuse to work for such a wage.
You'd have to give more particulars before it would be clear whether we were dealing with a situation in which there was some genuine injustice, or none at all. The first case is perfectly reasonable; the second is the issue, perhaps.
Yes, that is true. The worker should perhaps be rich enough to afford to hire a Ferrari for an hour or two once in her working life. Welfare socialism is relative to degrees of welfare, i.e. degree of differential in incomes.


Regarding your second example. Trades unions protect workers against exploitation of their labour.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:52 pm
The worker should perhaps be rich enough to afford to hire a Ferrari for an hour or two once in her working life.
There's no reason she needs that. I'm not terribly worried about the fact that people don't all get rides in super sports cars.
Trades unions protect workers against exploitation of their labour.
They don't work anymore.

I'd better explain that. Unions require the ability to withdraw their labour force, so as to prevent a company from making profit without the reasonable cooperation of the workforce. Nowadays, multinationals just pick up stakes and move to a new locale, or "offshore" their products to avoid that. That darling of the Leftists, "global unity" turns out to empower the companies to diminish or destroy their unions. And they are why we have sweatshops in Saigon, and joblessness in Detroit.

Belinda
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by Belinda » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:02 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
There's no reason she needs that. I'm not terribly worried about the fact that people don't all get rides in super sports cars.
Some people have all the luxuries possible but others can't even feed their babies. Where do you demarcate ?

To threaten to totally withdraw labour is hardly an option for public servants like nurses or farmers. Are workers in engineered infrastructures like water, drainage, flood prevention, transport , and so forth also public servants? Where do you demarcate between luxuries and necessities?

gaffo
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Re: Hold up Henry; what's a libertarian?

Post by gaffo » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:37 am

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:50 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:21 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:06 am
What's wrong with being anti-American?
the democrat party proclaims their hatred of America as founded everyday

-Imp
Democrats uphold the spirit of 76. Whilst the Repugs are monarchists in all but name demanding obedience.
in general agree.

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