Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

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Impenitent
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Impenitent » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:37 am

it's a constitutional republic

the mob will rule soon enough

-Imp

gaffo
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by gaffo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:29 am

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:37 am
it's a constitutional republic
yes, though the constitution is under threat ;-/.

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:37 am
the mob will rule soon enough

-Imp
I hope not. ;-/.

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Sculptor
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Sculptor » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:19 am

On the matter of executive authority.

I think American's problem is her constitution which was written as an alternative for a system led by a King; based on the British system of governance.
The President took the powers of a King, but added more power. He has always had more power than any king since Charles I (who lost his head).

His power to veto, set the agenda, appoint and sack a long list of posts, and his control of the armed forces, as well as being in control of foreign policy makes his post undemocratic, lacking in scrutiny.

The only way to oust a standing potas is impeachment , requiring illegal activity and a 2/3rds majority.

mickthinks
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by mickthinks » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:27 pm

I think you are wrong about (pretty much) everything you said there, Sculptor. To take just one example; impeachment doesn't require illegal activity in the sense of activity which is prohibited for ordinary citizens. It is my view that Trump's failure to properly divest himself of his business interests, while not illegal in any ordinary sense, is manifestly impeachable. Maybe too, his failure to make available his tax returns. https://constitution.org/cmt/high_crimes.htm

Spyrith
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Spyrith » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am

From what I gather, you assume the United States is not democratic because it has governing institutions, and democracy cannot exist without governing institutions.

But what if people actually want governing institutions? If you drop 1000 people on an island, and they voluntarily create the right to vote, choose a President to lead over them, alongside a 50 member parliament, is it a democracy or not? After all, they created those institutions willingly, and knew they would give up some freedoms.

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Sculptor
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Sculptor » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

Spyrith wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am
From what I gather, you assume the United States is not democratic because it has governing institutions, and democracy cannot exist without governing institutions.

But what if people actually want governing institutions? If you drop 1000 people on an island, and they voluntarily create the right to vote, choose a President to lead over them, alongside a 50 member parliament, is it a democracy or not? After all, they created those institutions willingly, and knew they would give up some freedoms.
No. I'm talking about discretionary executive orders.
It's all about the lack of accountability and the exercise of executive power which renders the so-called "legislature", a body for nodding on the bills and acts of the office of the Whitehouse, that holds all the cards.
This is how Trump managed to ban visitors from several "Muslim" countries without consulting anyone.
This is how Dick Cheney managed to award himself massive (no bid) contracts for Haliburton during the Iraq conflict.
It's also how Nixon felt entitled to bug the Watergate Hotel, stating that if the President does it, it is legal. It is also how his successor Gerald Ford was able to give Nixon a full pardon for his crimes.
You might also have noticed that Trump has spent his time capriciously sacking and hiring people with extreme day to day power, with absolutely no scrutiny.

The trouble seems to be 1) that the office of president a direct replacement for KING in a system designed 200 years ago, and with a country obsessed with the sacredness of the divine constitution.
2) As no sitting president is likely to voluntarily relinquish these powers, it looks like the US is stuck with them. In the event that other institutions of government might seek to limit the power of the president, the presidential VETO would see that could never happen.
3) People are too limited to appreciate a fully fledged democracy. They like the simplicity. Even in the UK where there is no actual vote for the PM, people still seem to like to think that they are voting for one man or woman in a General Election in which they are requested to vote for an individual constituency MP. Recent events in parliament that have foiled Boris Johnson's attempts to govern has demonstrated that a parliamentary system is capable of asserting itself, has proven confusing for people of limited imagination.

Dachshund
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Dachshund » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:28 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:37 am
it's a constitutional republic

the mob will rule soon enough

-Imp

Yeah, a mob comprised of Hispanics and African -Americans that will be bigger than the mob of white European Americans. It wont be long before that's the reality in the US.Believe it !

And what it will mean it that your chicken, white ass is going to suffer big time; coz those Mexicans and Blacks hate whites like you something fierce, buddy, and they're gonna get their "payback" ( i.e; revenge for all the "evil things" whites have done to them).

If I was you , I'd get off the sinking ship fast and emigrate to some other Western country that still has a stable, white majority !

Dachshund

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Sculptor
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Sculptor » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:34 pm

Dachshund wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:28 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:37 am
it's a constitutional republic

the mob will rule soon enough

-Imp

Yeah, a mob comprised of Hispanics and African -Americans that will be bigger than the mob of white European Americans. It wont be long before that's the reality in the US.Believe it !
LOL
If that is how you see the world, then that is what you deserve, you racist moron.

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Sculptor
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Re: Why the USA is not and never will be Democratic

Post by Sculptor » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:33 pm

Example:

Comey investigates Trump's talking to Russia for electioneering help.
Trump sacks Comey.

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