Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:28 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:36 pm
That is almost exactly the definition of secularism...
You're not arguing for mere neutrality in regard to religion, but the deliberate weeding out of it all. That's the opposite of "non-abridgement."

It's authoritarian, and necessarily violent as well. You're calling for forcible secularization, not mere official secularity.

That option is not American.
1) I'm arguing for the definition of secular.


2) I might be also arguing for the murder of all "holy men" and the burning down of all places of worship - this is an entirely different issue.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 5933
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:50 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:41 pm
1) I'm arguing for the definition of secular.
"Secular" is, ironically, originally a "religious" word. (https://www.etymonline.com/word/secular) It designates a two-sphere view of society...some things are "sacred," and others are "secular," but there are two types of things in society, according to the "secular" paradigm.

Unless I misunderstand you, you're arguing for a society that is devoid of the sacred, devoid of any religious zones. That's compulsory state Atheism, not "secularity."
2) I might be also arguing for the murder of all "holy men" and the burning down of all places of worship - this is an entirely different issue.
If you were to argue what you say you "might," you'd put yourself into impressive company. Stalin and Mao thought exactly the same.

But let me ask you this: if "religion" is so bad, and your "secularization" is so good, how is it that I can tolerate -- and even insist upon -- people's right to live and die by their convictions, even if they're different from mine, and you cannot? If freedom is a chief American value, and as Locke said, freedom of conscience the primary right of all, is forcible state secularization not anti-freedom?

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:47 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:50 pm
..., and as Locke said, freedom of conscience the primary right of all, is forcible state secularization not anti-freedom?
Locke said that for PROTESTANTS. He specifically denied those rights to Catholics in much the same way and many in the US would deny them to Muslims.

Getting people to throw if the chains of religion is the greatest freedom a person can have.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 5933
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:09 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:50 pm
..., and as Locke said, freedom of conscience the primary right of all, is forcible state secularization not anti-freedom?
Locke said that for PROTESTANTS. He specifically denied those rights to Catholics
Actually, no, he didn't.

While it's true that his rationale was based on a Protestant cosmology, it made freedom of conscience more important than any particular ideology. It argued that anybody who tried to make someone else do something contrary to their conscience was actually working against God.

Check it out. He was writing during the "Glorious Revolution." The problem was the coexistence of the Catholics and Anglicans in England. Locke worked out a rationale that both groups could believe, on the basis of religious authority, for them to permit each other to follow conscience, not state fiat. In other words, he created a rationale to avert a possible state of civil war of the sort that had already created the Roundheads and decapitated Charles.

Not only that, but his rationale would have implications beyond even Locke's immediate situation. It would eventually, because of its internal logic, have to include persons of colour, women, and even children in its range. That's why all the major human rights codes still quote Locke.
Getting people to throw if the chains of religion is the greatest freedom a person can have.
You might think so. And in the case of some religions, you might even be right about that. But Atheism is a massive void. It rationalizes no rights, no ethics, and no ultimate meaning for life. It takes away everything, but gives nothing. And if getting state Atheism to come about requires force, it doesn't even conduce to freedom.

If it could offer something, especially something better than religions do, you might have a case there. But it's an ideological black hole, and one so dark and dense that nothing escapes the pull of its gravity. One can live with it only by not following through its implications, which as Nietzsche foresaw, are total Nihilism. And empirically, Atheism has sponsored the most homicidal regimes in history, by far.

So what's the attraction, there?

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:09 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:50 pm
..., and as Locke said, freedom of conscience the primary right of all, is forcible state secularization not anti-freedom?
Locke said that for PROTESTANTS. He specifically denied those rights to Catholics
Actually, no, he didn't.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/tho ... e-and-ours

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8073
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:34 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:47 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:14 am


The same is true in most Western countries. Immigration has been a net gain to the economy. The US relies on it heavily.
You are just being played like a cheap violin.
It can also artificially raise the GDP. You are the one 'being played'. Who gives a flying fuck about 'growing economy' anyway? What does it even mean? What use is a 'growing economy' to the homeless and those living below the breadline?
The number of immigrants does not relate to homelessness. There are thousands of empty properties all over the US and the UK. Far more than would be necessary to home every one. Let that sink in.

What is at fault is the system of neoliberal economics that has forced house prices and rents up well beyond reasonable limits.
And of course it wouldn't have anything to do with locals having to compete with wealthy immigrants buying up every property they can lay their hands on, forcing prices up. There are multiple reasons for open door immigration having a negative impact on a country. Why so fucking many of them? White South Africans are pouring in en masse because they don't like black rule. Well tough titties. They come here with their fascist politics and religious fanaticism (they are soooo religious!) instead of staying home and fixing their own country. Chinese flock here because it's so crowded and polluted in their own country--again, bringing their right-wing politics with them and fuck-the-environment attitude (actually the only reason it stayed relatively unpolluted here is BECAUSE of the small population. Duh! Humans are such idiots.) Indians(mostly Fijiian because ethnic Fijiians got fed up with them) flock here and buy up every business they can lay their hands on then employ only their own.
And we DON'T have thousands of empty houses. It's affordable housing that's lacking, and jobs. I'm not interested in the US or UK.
The homeless aren't immigrants--they are locals. And the cheap immigrant labour is being told that locals are 'too lazy to work', which is being repeated ad-infinitum by the immigrants themselves. But I suppose that kind of racism sits well with you. Everyone wants a piece and now there's nothing left. It's hardly rocket science.
Give me some good reasons why all of this is good for the country (and not your 'good for the economy' meaningless cop-out bullshit). Obviously 'someone' is getting something out of it, but it's not Joe Average, and it's ALL about money for a few at the expense of the many. Gosh. Some things never change :roll:
I will await the predictable response with baited breath.

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 5933
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:48 pm

This is a Catholic source. Moreover, the dire interpretation it puts on Locke did not, as a matter of historical fact, happen.

Now, it's true that Locke himself was not a Catholic, and was familiar with the intrigues of Catholic politicians and agents in England. Everybody knew that. It's what the Glorious Revolution is all about. Catholic attempts to retake the crown of England had become a perpetual threat of civil war. So it's quite natural that Locke would stop short of saying, "People who have declared they want to resubjugate England are free to do so." Freedom of conscience does not entail the right to harm or subjugate others. It contradicts the principle of freedom of conscience that Locke affirmed.

That just makes sense.

But what Locke wrote did more than even he knew. Once you grant freedom of conscience, it ends up covering everyone. That reading, history does bear out. Thats' how it happened.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:51 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:34 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:47 am


It can also artificially raise the GDP. You are the one 'being played'. Who gives a flying fuck about 'growing economy' anyway? What does it even mean? What use is a 'growing economy' to the homeless and those living below the breadline?
The number of immigrants does not relate to homelessness. There are thousands of empty properties all over the US and the UK. Far more than would be necessary to home every one. Let that sink in.

What is at fault is the system of neoliberal economics that has forced house prices and rents up well beyond reasonable limits.
And of course it wouldn't have anything to do with locals having to compete with wealthy immigrants buying up every property they can lay their hands on, forcing prices up.
What fucking planet do you come from?

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:48 pm
This is a Catholic source. Moreover, the dire interpretation it puts on Locke did not, as a matter of historical fact, happen.
I can't waste my time with your ignorance.

"Locke gives a principled account of religious toleration, though this is mixed in with arguments which apply only to Christians, and perhaps in some cases only to Protestants. He excluded both Catholics and atheists from religious toleration. In the case of Catholics it was because he regarded them as agents of a foreign power. Because they do not believe in God, atheists, on Locke’s account: “Promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist” (Mendus 1991: 47). He gives his general defense of religious toleration while continuing the anti-Papist rhetoric of the Country party which sought to exclude James II from the throne."
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8073
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:38 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:51 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:34 pm

The number of immigrants does not relate to homelessness. There are thousands of empty properties all over the US and the UK. Far more than would be necessary to home every one. Let that sink in.

What is at fault is the system of neoliberal economics that has forced house prices and rents up well beyond reasonable limits.
And of course it wouldn't have anything to do with locals having to compete with wealthy immigrants buying up every property they can lay their hands on, forcing prices up.
What fucking planet do you come from?
True to form :lol: Which rock have YOU been living under? You obviously don't live in the real world. Too little oxygen up in that ivory tower :roll:

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 5933
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 am

Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:52 pm
I can't waste my time with your ignorance.
Missing the point. Locke started the ball rolling. He may have had limited ideas of how it would be applied...but he couldn't stop what he started. History shows rights were going to be extended to all sorts of demographics, because of the logic of Locke's argument.

There is no parallel argument in Atheism...no rationale for any human rights for anyone, or any values at all, in fact.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 am
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:52 pm
I can't waste my time with your ignorance.
Missing the point. Locke started the ball rolling. He may have had limited ideas of how it would be applied...but he couldn't stop what he started. History shows rights were going to be extended to all sorts of demographics, because of the logic of Locke's argument.

There is no parallel argument in Atheism...no rationale for any human rights for anyone, or any values at all, in fact.
Atheism has nothing to do with anything, except the denial of God.
This opens up a free field to avoid the mental slavery that you have imposed upon yourself.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by Sculptor » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:33 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:38 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:51 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:47 pm


And of course it wouldn't have anything to do with locals having to compete with wealthy immigrants buying up every property they can lay their hands on, forcing prices up.
What fucking planet do you come from?
True to form :lol: Which rock have YOU been living under? You obviously don't live in the real world. Too little oxygen up in that ivory tower :roll:
No I mean literally where are you from?

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 5933
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:39 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:32 pm
Atheism has nothing to do with anything, except the denial of God.
Precisely correct.

It's a void, a null, a mere negation. It's Nihilism. It's an ideological gelding: it has no fruitfulness in it. No good thing comes out of it. Not even freedom, since it insists on imposing itself on people who may want to believe other things.

But people cannot live with a void -- no meaning, no purpose, no hope, no future. So they have to add something. And with Atheism, it's some authoritarian political ideology. Because if there's no God, it's up to us. But each of us is too small to achieve anything. So, the logic goes, people must be forced to do what is necessary for that political ideology.

What's more, it's not even "wrong" for us to compel each other, because there's no morality in Atheism either. So Atheism opens up the possibility of coercion, of propaganda, of gulags and reeducation camps, because those things aren't "wrong" for an Atheist either. Historically, that's how it inevitably plays out...to the tune of well over 100,000,000 dead bodies in the last century alone.

There's the "freedom" of Atheism. The "freedom" to know nothing, to be nothing, to have no purpose, to go nowhere, to do anything to each other, and to have no moral recourse for the oppressed. It opens the world to raw power, and no more.

It is not I who saw this first. Nietzsche saw it. He said it, long before I was born. But somehow, Atheists don't seem to take his prophecies seriously. They keep thinking that Atheist regimes will turn out to be good. And they continue to circulate the claim that Atheism brings freedom. It doesn't. It brings bewilderment, emptiness, desperation and then death.

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 373
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: "Immigration has been a net gain to the economy."

Post by Sculptor » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:39 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:32 pm
Atheism has nothing to do with anything, except the denial of God.
Precisely correct.
But the word "atheist" is not an exhaustive description of me. It's only nihilist if you are scared of not having a god.
You fucking whimp.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests