Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by FlashDangerpants » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:48 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:38 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:21 pm
Neoliberalism is inequality.
So is everything else.
Rubbish.
Some economic systems are brave enough to mitigate the effects of inequality.
It's ok to ask if you don't know what a thing means.

Neoliberals support lots of things to mitigate inequality. Here's a handful off the top of my head.
Minimum wage (typically 60% of regional median income is the number that kills fewest jobs while doing something useful)
Redistributive taxation (exact opinions vary but neolibs don't approve of regressive taxation, and probably all approve of negative income taxes for low income families)
Universal insurance for loss of health and loss of income etc.
Education and skills training for the out of work and often the same for those who are just in low paid careers and would like to earn more.

We don't seize the means of production, or the commanding heights of the economy, but you have communism to provide that service if you want to spread poverty more efficiently.

gaffo
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:18 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:49 pm

So there you go. I think neoliberalism is mostly good, and more of you should be neolib shills with me.
read the rest of your post and concur, guess that makes me a "neoliberal" too. ;-/.

;-).?

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Sculptor
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by Sculptor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:24 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:48 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:14 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:38 pm


So is everything else.
Rubbish.
Some economic systems are brave enough to mitigate the effects of inequality.
It's ok to ask if you don't know what a thing means.

Neoliberals support lots of things to mitigate inequality. Here's a handful off the top of my head.
Minimum wage (typically 60% of regional median income is the number that kills fewest jobs while doing something useful)
Redistributive taxation (exact opinions vary but neolibs don't approve of regressive taxation, and probably all approve of negative income taxes for low income families)
Universal insurance for loss of health and loss of income etc.
Education and skills training for the out of work and often the same for those who are just in low paid careers and would like to earn more.

We don't seize the means of production, or the commanding heights of the economy, but you have communism to provide that service if you want to spread poverty more efficiently.
You live in cloud cukoo land.
For all the positive things you have erroneously attributed to NL, all of them fly in the face of the facts that NL is minimal state, tax breaks for the rich, Off shore savings; tax evasion; low bank regulation.
Since NL was invented inequality and poverty have rocketed, whilst the number of feckless moron billionaires has increased. We pay more for utilities, more sales tax.

gaffo
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Re: Neoliberalism: micro-assessment

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:25 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:26 pm
"Henry thinks everyone is a commie"

Not everyone, no. Hell, most of the folks who live in state communisms aren't (cuz they know from experience what a crapsack state communism is). The 'commies' are those who embrace the ideal, believe it can be practically realized, but who have no experience of it (cuz the ideal is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow).

indeed, the irony is of course those still living under Communism (NK only - since both China and Russia are in effect no longer Communist, but instead Fascist (coalition bet industry and gov - not gov own industry) - those in NK may affirm it (prob not though - i suspect not).

so ya the irony being the only ones now affirming communism are liberal arts eggheads in universities in the west and thier bot students -t he former being paid via non-communist goverment grants, and latter just becoming buried in student loans.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by FlashDangerpants » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:50 am

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:24 am
You live in cloud cukoo land.
For all the positive things you have erroneously attributed to NL, all of them fly in the face of the facts that NL is minimal state, tax breaks for the rich, Off shore savings; tax evasion; low bank regulation.
It doesn't. Well maybe some of the bank regulation stuff, we are in general in favour of low touch regulation where possible. There are some regulations which deliver perverse results, so those should be replaced with ones that don't.
Neoliberalism doesn't approve of things that distort normal economic activity, so if off shore savings are for normal reasons, that is cool.
Tax evasion is not cool, and nobody favours that. Why make me refute stupid, self evidently untrue complaints?
Neoliberalism explicitly does not promote a minimal state, that's for minarchists and their ilk. Take that matter up with Henry, I find it boring.

And as for the tax breaks for the rich bit .... how many more times must I mention that "They also don't like us because we don't think very highly of the Laffer Curve, or trickle down economics in general, we dispute the whole notion that lower taxes on the rich creates a whole bunch of jobs." ... before I am done repeating myself?
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:24 am
Since NL was invented inequality and poverty have rocketed, whilst the number of feckless moron billionaires has increased. We pay more for utilities, more sales tax.
Actual poverty has only risen in a handful of war zones and failed states, everywhere else it has fallen.

Relative poverty has risen wherever you care to collect the numbers that give you the measure of poverty you want. Neoliberals propose many remedies for this latter issue, because we do care and we want to make the world better just like you do. So climb down off that high horse old man before you dislocate the giant stick you have up your butt.

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henry quirk
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"Some economic systems are brave enough to mitigate the effects of inequality."

Post by henry quirk » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 am

Harrison Bergeron redux

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henry quirk
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BOO!

Post by henry quirk » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am

"Minimum wage (typically 60% of regional median income is the number that kills fewest jobs while doing something useful)"
(you! citizen business owner! you must pay no less than the gov-assigned minimum! we, the knowing, deprive you of control over what is yours! we do not trust individuals to transact or contract freely!)

#

"Redistributive taxation (exact opinions vary but neolibs don't approve of regressive taxation, and probably all approve of negative income taxes for low income families)"
(wealthy citizen! you have too much! we will take some of what you have and give it to others we deem needy! no, no, we don't want your opinion on this! pony up the moola!)

#


"Universal insurance for loss of health and loss of income etc."
(rest easy, ailing citizen! let us bind your wounds, ease your fever, straighten your spine! all better? back to work, citizen!)

#


"Education and skills training for the out of work and often the same for those who are just in low paid careers and would like to earn more."
(no, citizen! we have no need for farmers! we need sanitation engineers! your training begins now!)

gaffo
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Re: "Some economic systems are brave enough to mitigate the effects of inequality."

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:19 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 am
Harrison Bergeron redux
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxGnA0YW-y8

gaffo
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:24 am


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Immanuel Can
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:01 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:29 pm
Of those terms you listed, apart from "patriarchy", which are you supposing wasn't originally self chosen?
"Nazis" was self-chosen by Nazis. It was their acronym, so it's their original.

But as it's used today, it's an anachronism. There are no real "Nazis" today, except a few clowns who like to pose as associated with that old party.

The rest of those terms are just Leftist-chosen pejoratives. And they don't actually describe anything. They're just labels that enable instant dismissal of any contrary viewpoint.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Some economic systems are brave enough to mitigate the effects of inequality."

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:02 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:43 am
Harrison Bergeron redux
I LOVE that short story.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:16 am

gaffo,

"Heinlein"

In my top ten.

####

Mannie,

"I LOVE that short story."

Me too. Very illustrative of what strivin' for 'equality' is really about.

Water will find its own level: leave it be.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: BOO!

Post by FlashDangerpants » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:41 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am
"Minimum wage (typically 60% of regional median income is the number that kills fewest jobs while doing something useful)"
(you! citizen business owner! you must pay no less than the gov-assigned minimum! we, the knowing, deprive you of control over what is yours! we do not trust individuals to transact or contract freely!)
Well yes. It's a strength and a weakness of NL that it's not strongly tethered to any specific ideological position other than a general sense that liberalism is good and public policy should be effective as designed to provide according to the wants of a democratic polity.

Society in general wants poverty reduced, so the job of the good neoliberal is to find the ways that reduce it effectively without having harmful knock on effects. The best evidence is that minimum wages work for some of that, but at very high levels they promote automation which kills off low paid jobs (arguments can be made that this is a good thing overall, however it is deemed undesirable by many).

An alternative is to move price floors by providing higher levels of assistance for the poor or unemployed. This is difficult and expensive, but you can subsidise the low paid (not in itself automatically a bad idea), which at some level (a higher level than people assume) becomes the state subsidising the low paying companies instead of the low paid employees, which is inefficient and unjust. Or you can just give out really generous unemployment benefits until employers who want staff have to pay above poverty rates to get any staff at all. Both of these are much worse than a minimum wage because they distort everybody's incentives too much.

In the longer term, we should consider the very high minimum wage option, and look at whether we are actually good with the job loss and automation side of it, it may turn out we are. However, very high minimum wages in Scandinavia are a problem for refugees who find themselves at a heavy disadvantage in the job market under those circumstances, causing much anxiety. So usually minimum wages are considered safe only if they leave an entry level at which youngsters and recently released criminals can still gain employment.
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am
"Redistributive taxation (exact opinions vary but neolibs don't approve of regressive taxation, and probably all approve of negative income taxes for low income families)"
(wealthy citizen! you have too much! we will take some of what you have and give it to others we deem needy! no, no, we don't want your opinion on this! pony up the moola!)
Well it doesn't take an awful lot of moola but it does deliver outsize benefits, and it removes children from inherited poverty. So yes, suck it up like a big boy, stop being greedy and let us fix a problem with a little your money and mine. You can deal with somehow persuading society that they are wrong to want to actively reduce poverty, in the meantime you may as well let us deal with the effective methods to do it that don't waste the cash.
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am
"Universal insurance for loss of health and loss of income etc."
(rest easy, ailing citizen! let us bind your wounds, ease your fever, straighten your spine! all better? back to work, citizen!)
Yes, universal insurance is cheaper than partial insurance for everyone.

You drive a car, or one of those really tall trucks with the giant wheels or something I assume, and I doubt you can legally drive it without insurance. If that insurance weren't mandatory, it would be much, much more expensive for those who did get it, causing even more people not to get it. This is the result of Adverse Selection, at first those who consider themselves at little risk don't buy the insurance, then the price goes up and those who want it can't afford it, and in the end it is expensive for everyone. After which you only end with the government providing tax breaks to subsidise it anyway, without which many more Americans wouldn't have it at all.
henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am
"Education and skills training for the out of work and often the same for those who are just in low paid careers and would like to earn more."
(no, citizen! we have no need for farmers! we need sanitation engineers! your training begins now!)
Tell that to those poor stranded coal miners in Virginia who really thought that they were going to get a federal lifeline to return them to the 70s. They are fucked, and that won't be changing. They would have done much better to learn new trades, it would be a good idea to help them out.

Skepdick
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Re: BOO!

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:28 am

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:02 am
wealthy citizen! you have too much! we will take some of what you have and give it to others we deem needy! no, no, we don't want your opinion on this! pony up the moola!
That's one way to interpret it. Another is thus

"Wealthy citizen, it is a scientific fact that increased levels of economic inequality results in increased levels of violence, instability and us/them mentality in a society. It's in your rational, selfish interest to do whatever is necessary to off-set inequality, which will help keep violence levels at a minimum. You say you want freedom, but do you want freedom from violence?"

You could go on to make any number of moral arguments to condemn those who resort to violence, but your arguments are of zero pragmatic utility towards measurably reducing violence.

What matters, in practice, is only what works in practice.

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Sculptor
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Re: Neoliberalism is good (or at least ok).

Post by Sculptor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:03 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:50 am
Actual poverty has only risen in a handful of war zones and failed states, everywhere else it has fallen.
LOL
Yes, you mean war zones and failed states like Greece, Spain, Italy, the UK, and the USA?

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