MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

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gaffo
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by gaffo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:26 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:58 am
There is the obvious reason why The Democratic lawmakers, Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, have become so influential. They have created a new branch of the federal government: The DoB. The Department of Blowjobs determines when where and how who is getting whatever in congress so who would object to the altruistic efforts of these women of color. Congress must follow its priorities and what cold be more important than the work of he DoB for creating peace and tranquility amongst congress people?
sign up for the Trump-Himler brigade numbnutts.

you'd fit riech in, no brains to think for yourself - just a bot.

Make Amerika Great Again!

Zig Heil!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 am

gaffo wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:59 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:42 pm
I'm not saying the US has done everything right: I'm saying what they have done is not really an "empire." The metaphor is inapt, I think.
I view America as the best alternative.
Well, there aren't a heck of a lot of other places in the world that are better to live, from a prosperity and opportunity standpoint, that's for sure. It's the old story: "All the boats go one way..." You don't see people flooding out of the US to get to Saudi or China or Venezuela or Cuba or Honduras. But lots of folks want to get in.
but empire nonetheless.

- now i'm interested!

lets discuss!

you have a mind i see, and would like to discuss such matters.

nature of Empire, nature of Britain, U.S., even Rome - etc..
Well, one feature of an empire is that it turns places into colonies or vassal states of the conquerors. The U.S. does intervene militarily sometimes...but who else is going to? There are actual totalitarian states in the world, and some really vicious dictators; are we going to fault the only country that actually has the nerve to stand up to them? How well would that have worked with Hitler?

As for the Americans, yeah, they do bomb things sometimes. And yeah, sometimes they get into other people's business. And yeah, there is such a thing as the "ugly American tourist." Sure. People have lots of reasons for being annoyed at Americans. But I understand them, and as a people in general, I like them. A lot of European prejudice against them is, in my experience, born of misunderstanding or ignorance of how Americans are thinking about things. People attribute to them sinister motives that are just not part of the national character. We could all do with being a little less judgmental of them.

As for the American military, yes, they do make aggressive moves. And some of those moves are warranted. Maybe some are overreactions. Even so, when they're done, they don't tend to turn subdued countries into colonies...they tend to press for free elections and democratic reforms, then development, human rights, education, and trade. You don't get that from totalitarian empires.
not into virtue signaling. it i lived in germany - i like 1/10 of Germans would have HATED hitler, and not lifted a finger to house a Jew (and risk being exicuted if caught).
I think we all would like to think we'd have done the right thing. I wish I were sure we all would have. But I hope we'd all do the right thing now. History should remind us that sometimes we only get one chance to do the brave thing.
as long as they have good character, i don't give a shit which/if God they worship. If i liked them and ibid, we'd talk about our views of "God" (or non-god in my case) and understand each other better.
Fair enough.
BTW mentally i'm a Jewish Buddist in mindset/personal conduct
??? How does one get to be a Jewish Buddhist?

Now I'm intrigued...
I find the OT more accord with my personality than the NT - we can discuss why so - but you prob read the many posts by me why i like amos/jonah/mark and not paul/john/leviticus in many other threads since i've been here for nearly 2 yrs now.
Wow. I wonder why I didn't run into you before.
thanks for reply BTW - i welcome conversing with you - you have a mind, and that might seem like much, but in this day and age it is! sadly.
My pleasure. Thanks for your response, too.

Nick_A
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:40 am

gaffo wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:26 am
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:58 am
There is the obvious reason why The Democratic lawmakers, Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Rashida Tlaib of Michigan and Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, have become so influential. They have created a new branch of the federal government: The DoB. The Department of Blowjobs determines when where and how who is getting whatever in congress so who would object to the altruistic efforts of these women of color. Congress must follow its priorities and what cold be more important than the work of he DoB for creating peace and tranquility amongst congress people?
sign up for the Trump-Himler brigade numbnutts.

you'd fit riech in, no brains to think for yourself - just a bot.

Make Amerika Great Again!

Zig Heil!
Well done. You may be rewarded by the DoB. Even now they are training assistants to reward those they consider with promise. Hey, you may get lucky.

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henry quirk
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gaffo

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:42 am

"rapist/serial killer/kidnapper that raised female slave in basment for 20 fking yrs! (austria). give me a break Bubba."

He got caught, yeah?

So: no, no breaks given.

gaffo
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by gaffo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:29 am

2 hours ago a buddy knocked on my door just before i was going to reply to you.

we ended up talking about the Neopoloenic(sp) wars and Hitler vs Russia and why Germany lost ww2.


he is a character, well he is gone now and so i shall reply to the best of my ability.


we agreed, had France had the balls and Britian to mind to coordinate/agree to a unified Command and control prior to Sept 2, France Amor (supporior to German) with Brit airforce (Equal to German) would have been able to invade into West Germany (while 8/10'th of the German forces were in Poland) - Hitler would have shit a brick and sued for peace - end of WW2 two weeks after it started.

but French (primarily - i do not blaime the Brits - outside of Champerlain and the slow start to reality vision of war as the only option - they fought wellish and did the right thing in dunkerk) rolled over. French desertion rates were outragous, and those that did fight, did a piss poor job of it. Hitler rewarded them with release from POW camps within a month post Vichy (Nazi France Farce)




Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 am

As for the Americans, yeah, they do bomb things sometimes. And yeah, sometimes they get into other people's business. And yeah, there is such a thing as the "ugly American tourist." Sure. People have lots of reasons for being annoyed at Americans. But I understand them, and as a people in general, I like them. A lot of European prejudice against them is, in my experience, born of misunderstanding or ignorance of how Americans are thinking about things. People attribute to them sinister motives that are just not part of the national character. We could all do with being a little less judgmental of them.
most foreigners have for decades separated the concept of "gov from the people" and why i've found nearly all Iranians (for example) love the american people (though they think we are naive - and they are right BTW) and hate the American government.

i assume they feel the same way about thier own people and gov, and so can relate. lol.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 am
As for the American military, yes, they do make aggressive moves. And some of those moves are warranted. Maybe some are overreactions.
or based on willful lies - Iraqnam!

WW1 was legit (but foolish, had America stayed out, France/Britain would have won - 2 years later prob, but writing was on the wall with the brit blockade, starve the Germans out by 1921. so no need for America to get in that own. I'm not protesting we did, just saying, we were on the "correct side" - though it was not a war of good vs evil, just a foolish Kaiser that started an unnecessary war out of ego.

WW2 was legit


Korea was legit, NK illegally invade SK, UN and US responded

Vietnam was moronic, Aussies and US pleabs (and mostly SV guys!) did a lot of dying for nothing (for upholding a corrupt SV gov that was a relic of the prior French loser Dem Ben Fu (french can't fight themselves out of a paper bag! - let alone beat the Veitnamese - that THAT (in when 56? - SHOULD have been a CLUE to American "foriegn policy experts" to stay the fuck out! civil war. I feel for the SV that died and the lucky that had only "re-education camps" - i do, but fk US getting involved. SV gov was never a "beacon of democracy", and if it were, then MAYBE it would be a war worth HELPING the SV to win (not saying the SV did not fight! - far from it, they did - they and we with them lost - they lost 20 times we did). Just saying the fking gov was so corrupt that the "south viet man on the street" did not really care to save his gov.................until post Hue-75, then they fought with teeth, but too little too late.

Gulf war - legit, Saddam illegally invaded Kuwait, hung men on street lamps. UN, US and exiled Kuwaiti armored division retook nation Iraq illegally invaded.

Iraqnam - wholey illegal, fully based on lies - JR ego trip to show daddy's son is a man and will finish the job of the Gulfwar, Chaney money crab via halliberton. Wolfy/Feith/Perle - to fullfill their Likudnick Israeli first mentalities.
I'm still waiting for Richard Perle, Douglas Faith, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfield, and Bush JR to be arrested by the UCC and put in an 8 X 8

i wait and wait and wait...............Perle who? Feith who?...........time works for them sadly................its nearly all forgotten now (even though ISIS is the result of this fuckupwar!)

.
BTW mentally i'm a Jewish Buddist in mindset/personal conduct
??? How does one get to be a Jewish Buddhist?

Now I'm intrigued...[/quote]


Buddist value just "sitting and listening" - meditate without distractions, and also value being humble (if you see the budda in from of you strike him down - or somesuch).....basically self actualization is something i value and think buddists do to.

Judaism is all about Justice. not turning your cheek to some asshole that stabs you - but to offer your hand to him, until he stabs you, then fucking stab the asshole back!

Reciprocity.

default is of course to offer the hand to the stranger (Justice! Judiasm (proper Judiasm - not the filth preached in the Occupied Territories - "Kings Torah - where it is fine to kill arab babies becuase they will grow up to kill you (those Settlers Jew are filth and Nazis!)).

so offer the stranger you hand/food/blanket/etc by default. GREAT!

if he then bites your hand!!!!!!!!!!! - don't be a fucking Christian and kiss it!!!!!!! -= fucking Bite it back!!!!!!!!!!!! (YES "who starts it matters") - My obligation is to NEVER start a fight, but i sure as shit will return what i recieve!!!!!!!!! Love for Love, Hate for Hate.

Reciprocity is what its about and Judaism is all that!

Christianity is about kissing the asshole that beats the shit out of you! (hey if i started the fight, then i deserve a beatdown and should kiss the guy - but Christianity makes it all about NOT who started it - and all about forgive them regardless. fuck that. imo.

and so why i see myself as a Judaic Buddist.

lol


I find the OT more accord with my personality than the NT - we can discuss why so - but you prob read the many posts by me why i like amos/jonah/mark and not paul/john/leviticus in many other threads since i've been here for nearly 2 yrs now.
Wow. I wonder why I didn't run into you before.
thanks for reply BTW - i welcome conversing with you - you have a mind, and that might seem like much, but in this day and age it is! sadly.
My pleasure. Thanks for your response, too.
[/quote]

I have read most of the OT and some of the NT, and would love to talk about the works i like and those i don't, and why so - if that is of interest to you.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm

gaffo wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:29 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 am
As for the American military, yes, they do make aggressive moves. And some of those moves are warranted. Maybe some are overreactions.
or based on willful lies - Iraqnam!
I sense that I don't understand the deep particulars of that situation to make a judgment. All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be over there, and I don't see how they'll easily extricate themselves from it.
BTW mentally i'm a Jewish Buddist in mindset/personal conduct
??? How does one get to be a Jewish Buddhist?

Now I'm intrigued...
Buddist value just "sitting and listening" - meditate without distractions, and also value being humble (if you see the budda in from of you strike him down - or somesuch).....basically self actualization is something i value and think buddists do to.

Judaism is all about Justice. not turning your cheek to some asshole that stabs you - but to offer your hand to him, until he stabs you, then fucking stab the asshole back!

Reciprocity.
That is one difference. Buddhism has quite a different conception of "justice" from Judaism. But there are even more fundamental disharmonies. One obvious one is that for Buddhists, time is cyclical, and for Judaism, it's linear. Another would be that some Buddhisms claim to be non-theistic, and Judaism is first and foremost Monotheistic. Then there are the ethics of each...and so on.

I can't see how that would work. There are so many either/or's between those two, I don't think they can rationally coexist in one belief system.

I do 'get' that a person can believe both, but only by compartmentalizing -- being Jewish sometimes, and Buddhist sometimes -- but both at the same time, never. They're too incompatible to be integrated, I think.
Christianity makes it all about NOT who started it - and all about forgive them regardless.

Temporally, yes; eternally, justice resides with God.

Judaism says the same: "'Vengeance is mine,' says the Lord, 'I will repay.'" That frees both Christians and Jews not to seek justice on their own terms, but rather to trust God to achieve it. Indeed, in both belief systems, it's His exclusive prerogative. The Jewish concept of chesed is also the Christian conception of interpersonal "lovingkindness." So the temporal achieving of our own perception of justice is not the primary focus of either system. Mercy is. Justice is affirmed in the strongest terms...but as God's responsibility, not ours.

But I understand how that would naturally be surprising.

That, by the way, is one reason why the social justice types and the Leftist ideologues almost invariably hate Christians and Jews. They see them as not possible to use for their own "justice" projects.
thanks for reply BTW - i welcome conversing with you
Likewise.
I have read most of the OT and some of the NT, and would love to talk about the works i like and those i don't, and why so - if that is of interest to you.
As you wish. Sure.

If you would like to, I'll let you lead. Where would you like to start?

gaffo
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by gaffo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:42 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
gaffo wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:29 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:35 am
As for the American military, yes, they do make aggressive moves. And some of those moves are warranted. Maybe some are overreactions.
or based on willful lies - Iraqnam!
I sense that I don't understand the deep particulars of that situation to make a judgment. All I can say is that I wouldn't want to be over there, and I don't see how they'll easily extricate themselves from it.
??? How does one get to be a Jewish Buddhist?

Now I'm intrigued...
Buddist value just "sitting and listening" - meditate without distractions, and also value being humble (if you see the budda in from of you strike him down - or somesuch).....basically self actualization is something i value and think buddists do to.

Judaism is all about Justice. not turning your cheek to some asshole that stabs you - but to offer your hand to him, until he stabs you, then fucking stab the asshole back!

Reciprocity.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
That is one difference.

my illustration of difference was between Christians and Jews, not Buddists and Jews in this particular. (I do not know the Buddist view of Reciprocity - but would think it is more toward the Christion, that i reject personally).

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Buddhism has quite a different conception of "justice" from Judaism.

probably, welcome your views on this matter - not informed on Buddist view of morality. but know of some of the other tenents can assume it is more Christian than Judaic.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
But there are even more fundamental disharmonies. One obvious one is that for Buddhists, time is cyclical, and for Judaism, it's linear.

I assume you are refering to reincarnation - yes?

yes and no, generally you are correct, however there are several references in the NT about "John the Baptist/and-or/Jesus being the reincarnation of Elisha.............so there was a theological belief that "strong characters" of history would be "reborn" in latter persons to carry on thier original mission.

so a vague affirmation of reincarnation for the top dogs of prior history, would return on latter persons. ie. i think that mentality was common in Judaism 2000 yrs ago.

but not formal doctrine - ie not all pleabs will be reborn as a worn/dog/man/etc (unlike Buddism - and esp Hinduism). but think the "joe ave Jew by Christ's time thought the "Great men" would return in other persons to fullfill their original mission of social justice.

just my take reading old works of Judaic/christain works several years ago.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Another would be that some Buddhisms claim to be non-theistic,
Some do and some don't - i'm not learned enough to know the particulars of Buddism, having more personal interest in "Western Religion".

in fact - the last 5 yrs or so i've learned more about Hinduism than Buddism (of course the latter is born from the former - a parallel with Christianity and Judiasm).

Just saying lately i've found more time to become more educated in Hinduism, though still a pleab in this area.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
and Judaism is first and foremost Monotheistic.
Today it is!!!!!!!!!! (and all Jews claim it always was so!!!!!!!! - a re-writing of History!!!!!!!!)

Judaism was fully Polytheist from the time of the return of Exile (1300 BC) to 800 BC.

Baal is Yahwah's Brother, Mot too (and the other 7 Cananite gods/goddesses)............BTW El is YHWH's DADDY! - not the same God - until later they were forced to become the same God and Baal was re-written to become a "foriegn god" (rather than YHWH's Bro and El's son - whcih he was in "olden days").


Proper Judaism theology purged these old Cananite Pathion Gods from their religion eons ago, but if you know history you understand those gods were worshiped by the archiac jews!!!

just read the 10 commandments - one of them refers to "do not worship other gods before me". so a good jew would worship YHWH first, then they can in good consceince worship Mot,Baal, Tamuz, Ashira (YHWH's WIFE!). etc.

BY 800 BC - Amos (oldest work in the Bible BTW) - the pantheon was removed and only one god remained, YHWH (who was melded into his daddy El - to become the same God (like Christain today do with Christ and YHWH)).

i like Amos - best work of the OT IMO - welcome discussion about Amos' work.




Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm

I can't see how that would work. There are so many either/or's between those two, I don't think they can rationally coexist in one belief system.



????? welcome clarification on this.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
I do 'get' that a person can believe both
ok.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
, but only by compartmentalizing -- being Jewish sometimes, and Buddhist sometimes -- but both at the same time, never. They're too incompatible to be integrated, I think.
well yes of course! I'm an Atheist.

i affirm parts of each and reject the other parts (as i do with Christianity!) - so i pick and choose an an atheist the parts that conform with my conscience/personal identity, and reject the rest (as a non-jew i have no problem rejecting Leviticus as pure filth/and rejecting Suals works too - i think Paul as an opportunist as his latters i do not view as worthy compared to other works of the NT).

since i am not a devout Jew, Christian nor Buddist - i'm free to affirm some works in those faiths and reject other works.

as long as i do so with good faith and not let my ego corrupt my understanding for personal gain/ego. i'm ok IMO.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Christianity makes it all about NOT who started it - and all about forgive them regardless.

Temporally, yes; eternally, justice resides with God..
well yes! of course, i understand Christian theology Sir! its a great sentiment too!

I don't believe in the afterlife, and so conform to the Judaic view of reciprocity in this world.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Judaism says the same: "'Vengeance is mine,' says the Lord, 'I will repay.'"

I see where you comming from, and Raith(sp) - becoming god - is one of the Seven.

so i understand your point, and ideally i acseed to your point, but do not agree that the mentality of Judaism in this realm (not the ideal realm)is that of Christianity.

i do think on the ground level Jews affirm Reciprocity as their conduct (which is mine) - i take your point though, so they fall short of the Judiac ideal perhaps.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
That frees both Christians and Jews not to seek justice on their own terms, but rather to trust God to achieve it.
yes - see above.

i think Christain thought is more to that concept than Judaic.

but i get your point and appreciate it and you are correct per the ideal.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Indeed, in both belief systems, it's His exclusive prerogative. The Jewish concept of chesed is also the Christian conception of interpersonal "lovingkindness." So the temporal achieving of our own perception of justice is not the primary focus of either system. Mercy is. Justice is affirmed in the strongest terms...but as God's responsibility, not ours.

yes, i understand, see above.



Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
That, by the way, is one reason why the social justice types and the Leftist ideologues almost invariably hate Christians and Jews. They see them as not possible to use for their own "justice" projects.
??????? don't understand your point here. welcome clarification.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
I have read most of the OT and some of the NT, and would love to talk about the works i like and those i don't, and why so - if that is of interest to you.
As you wish. Sure.
well - first off - I'd welcome which works you like most from both the NT and the OT - tell me why you like those works and we can talk about them.

I personally identify more with the OT (I disslike the Torah BTW - so that make me a "Jew hater" - lol - view it a political theater to justify a land grab per the exiles out out Egypt).

I like the Minor Prophet works of the OT instead of the Torah.

esp Amos, Jonah, Job and Naham.

of the NT, i like Mark the most, then James.


Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
If you would like to, I'll let you lead. Where would you like to start?
Fair enough! thanks for the offer Sir! - if you'd like to create a thread over in the "religion" section - i'd welcome it! (to start the thread in the right area).

I'd love to talk about Amos! the oldest work of the OT and my personal Favorite! (though job and jonah are near equals to 99 percent - so if you'd like to talk about either them i'm ok with as well).

- thanks for the offer and i take you up on it Sir! i look forward to the disscusion ;-).

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Immanuel Can
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Our quotations are getting a bit long for the site...I'm going to take the liberty of selecting, if that's alright with you.
gaffo wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:42 am

my illustration of difference was between Christians and Jews, not Buddists and Jews in this particular. (I do not know the Buddist view of Reciprocity - but would think it is more toward the Christion, that i reject personally).
Okay, let's start there.

Christianity is a very direct product of Judaism, actually. But Buddhism is not. It's a variant of Hinduism.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Buddhism has quite a different conception of "justice" from Judaism.
probably, welcome your views on this matter - not informed on Buddist view of morality. but know of some of the other tenents can assume it is more Christian than Judaic.
No, it's really its own thing. Christians and Jews hold to many of the same moral principles. Nietzsche saw this, and this is why he talks about "Judeo-Christian" morality.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
But there are even more fundamental disharmonies. One obvious one is that for Buddhists, time is cyclical, and for Judaism, it's linear.
I assume you are refering to reincarnation - yes?
Not directly...but as a consequence, yes.
yes and no, generally you are correct, however there are several references in the NT about "John the Baptist/and-or/Jesus being the reincarnation of Elisha.............so there was a theological belief that "strong characters" of history would be "reborn" in latter persons to carry on thier original mission.
Not quite.

Both Judaism and Christianity talk about the reappearance of Elijah: but it's either AS Elijah, not as a reincarnation (Judaism), or as one who comes "in the spirit and power of Elijah" but not Elijah himself, i.e. John the Baptist (Christianity). Neither is a reference to reincarnation of a Hindu/Buddhist sort.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
and Judaism is first and foremost Monotheistic.
I'll let the Jewish folks defend that proposition. But their claim is that Judaism appears first with Abraham. After that, all Jews are supposed to be Monotheistic, but some weren't. Exodus records them worshiping the Golden Calf and a couple of other local gods, like Nehushtan and the Asherim. In other words, they were sometimes disobedient Monotheists. In each case, though, God "corrected" them for it.

So really, there wasn't any doubt about what the nation was supposed to be committed to.
just read the 10 commandments - one of them refers to "do not worship other gods before me".

The correct translation would not be "before" but "besides." It's also made very clear in the subsequent history of Israel that even one other god was not acceptable to God.
i like Amos - best work of the OT IMO - welcome discussion about Amos' work.
An unexpected choice.

What do you like about Amos in particular?
well yes of course! I'm an Atheist.
Upon what evidence did you become that?
since i am not a devout Jew, Christian nor Buddist - i'm free to affirm some works in those faiths and reject other works.
Is that so?

May I ask: would you be concerned at all about the direct contradictions between these "faiths," such as the morals, the time schemes, the ways of knowing God, their accounts of history, their descriptions of the divine, and so on?

And if not, may I ask what overarching master-key or system of your own you use to select out from each that which is worthy and that which must be rejected? Is it just how you feel about each precept, or is it something more formal?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm

Temporally, yes; eternally, justice resides with God..
well yes! of course, i understand Christian theology Sir! its a great sentiment too!
Of course it's more than a sentiment, though.

If one believes it, one waits for one's justice from God, and does not take revenge. If one forgets it, then maybe one does take revenge, but that's not a good thing if one does it.
I don't believe in the afterlife, and so conform to the Judaic view of reciprocity in this world.
Historically, Judaism did believe in an afterlife. Modern Judaism has dropped that, but it's very, very questionable that they should have. The OT affirms the afterlife, and the logical consequences of dropping the afterlife are spelled out for Judaism in Jesus' discourse to the Scribes in Mark 12:

"But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
Indeed, in both belief systems, it's His exclusive prerogative. The Jewish concept of chesed is also the Christian conception of interpersonal "lovingkindness." So the temporal achieving of our own perception of justice is not the primary focus of either system. Mercy is. Justice is affirmed in the strongest terms...but as God's responsibility, not ours.
yes, i understand, see above.
Fair enough.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
That, by the way, is one reason why the social justice types and the Leftist ideologues almost invariably hate Christians and Jews. They see them as not possible to use for their own "justice" projects.
??????? don't understand your point here. welcome clarification.
Well, the Social Justice ideologies require that we human beings must assert our concept of justice NOW, here, in this life, using the mechanisms of political action, or there will BE no justice...that's their core point.

Christians and Jews do not assert that justice is achieved...or even achievable...through mere human political means, and not in the here-and -now. Instead, they focus on amelioration of suffering, but not on the naive idea that its elimination is possible through utopianism -- Judaism today, more because of its specifically national/cultural focus, and Christianity because of it's belief in eternity, but both because justice is God's business, not entirely within our means.

So that makes Christians and Jews difficult for the Social Justice ideologues to manipulate into their political projects. Thus, SJWs become resentful.

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:46 pm
If you would like to, I'll let you lead. Where would you like to start?
Fair enough! thanks for the offer Sir! - if you'd like to create a thread over in the "religion" section - i'd welcome it! (to start the thread in the right area).
Well, as I said before, I think I'm happy to let you lead off on that. I don't know precisely what you'd like to discuss, so I can't really create a good first post to launch the thing; and in any case, I don't want to take control of your idea.

Fair?

Belinda
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Belinda » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:19 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Well, the Social Justice ideologies require that we human beings must assert our concept of justice NOW, here, in this life, using the mechanisms of political action, or there will BE no justice...that's their core point.

Christians and Jews do not assert that justice is achieved...or even achievable...through mere human political means, and not in the here-and -now. Instead, they focus on amelioration of suffering, but not on the naive idea that its elimination is possible through utopianism -- Judaism today, more because of its specifically national/cultural focus, and Christianity because of it's belief in eternity, but both because justice is God's business, not entirely within our means.

So that makes Christians and Jews difficult for the Social Justice ideologues to manipulate into their political projects. Thus, SJWs become resentful.
How can God ameliorate suffering if not by human efforts?

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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:19 pm
How can God ameliorate suffering if not by human efforts?
Human effort would indeed be one way. But why would we think it was the ONLY way?

Belinda
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Belinda » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:19 pm
How can God ameliorate suffering if not by human efforts?
Human effort would indeed be one way. But why would we think it was the ONLY way?
I think it's the only way because man seems to be the only creature that has the sort of moral ability to do so to any significant extent.

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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:03 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm
Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:19 pm
How can God ameliorate suffering if not by human efforts?
Human effort would indeed be one way. But why would we think it was the ONLY way?
I think it's the only way because man seems to be the only creature that has the sort of moral ability to do so to any significant extent.
You would suppose God lacked "moral ability"? Or that He did not have any "to any significant level"?

That would make you some kind of Deist, at most, and Atheist more probably, seeing God as a non-issue to His own "creatures."

The theologian, A.W. Tozer, once wrote,“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us.” That's profound. If we think of God as absentee or non-existent, then other conclusions we make are going to be based on that...we're going to think that God is not relevant to our decision-making, and that He is not an agent of justice for us. We'll calculate without Him.

Belinda
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Belinda » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:03 pm
Belinda wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm

Human effort would indeed be one way. But why would we think it was the ONLY way?
I think it's the only way because man seems to be the only creature that has the sort of moral ability to do so to any significant extent.
You would suppose God lacked "moral ability"? Or that He did not have any "to any significant level"?

That would make you some kind of Deist, at most, and Atheist more probably, seeing God as a non-issue to His own "creatures."

The theologian, A.W. Tozer, once wrote,“What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us.” That's profound. If we think of God as absentee or non-existent, then other conclusions we make are going to be based on that...we're going to think that God is not relevant to our decision-making, and that He is not an agent of justice for us. We'll calculate without Him.
It's mistake to lump God in with existence like other things that exist only better in every way. The most important thing about us is not what we do, frail mortals as we are, but what we intend to do.

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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 am
It's mistake to lump God in with existence like other things that exist only better in every way.
I'm not sure I can understand the syntax of this line.

Belinda
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Re: MUSLIM SENATORS IN THE US...WTF !

Post by Belinda » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:54 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:19 am
It's mistake to lump God in with existence like other things that exist only better in every way.
I'm not sure I can understand the syntax of this line.
You claim God exists. But He doesn't exist, because He transcends existence. God is not bigger, or better, or stronger, or more enduring, or more perfect, or anything else that relates to some other thing. If He were a relative entity then He would exist, or not exist. But He isn't a relative entity.

We are not God. A person's God is what the person intends. Good intentions can be recognised by whether or not they are disinterested i.e. not biased in favour of self or authorities.

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