Border crises

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Skep

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:25 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:22 pm
If, on the other hand, even a sliver of moral thought is objective, stands as true even if rejected by the bulk of folks, then you're wrong.
The concept of 'objectivity' is man-made. What 'objective' means to a scientist is simply 'supported by vast amounts of evidence'.
This isn't the stopping point, though. The scientist's aspiration, in trusting "vast amounts of evidence," is that he will thereby come closer to what is objectively true. He's not merely compiling evidence because having lots of stuff is fun. He thinks it will lead him closer to something very important, something that will be true, whether or not he has sufficient evidence at the moment. A real thing. The truth.

The fact that the scientist can't quite reach it is an epistemological problem, meaning a problem of the limits of human beings; but it doesn't impinge on the ontological question, which is whether any objective truth exists, and which both transcends (and makes sense of) the epistemological problem.

Skepdick
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Re: Skep

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:32 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:29 pm
The scientist's aspiration, in trusting "vast amounts of evidence," is that he will thereby come closer to what is objectively true.
Citation needed.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:29 pm
He thinks it will lead him closer to something very important, something that will be true, whether or not he has sufficient evidence at the moment. A real thing. The truth.
That is your misconception. Constructivists or model-dependent realists believe no such thing.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Border crises

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:33 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:28 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:24 pm
I was simply pointing out that having numbers of people agree does not make a thing right, any more than it makes a thing true.
Why would you point such a thing out when I never alluded to it?
Misunderstanding, I guess. I thought you said that when a thing is "global" and "tacit," then it's "right."

So if it wasn't you, then whom were you quoting, when you said that?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:10 pm
I was really hoping you'd have an answer, something you really believed.
I gave you the answer I believed in. I know it when I see it. [/quote]
Well, to clarify: do you mean you're an Intuitionist? You suppose that the human intuition (or perhaps only your own? I don't know...you'll have to tell me) is a kind of "radar" that accurately picks out what's "right"?

Just asking.
I am a social constructionist.

Then you're not an Intuitionist, are you? Because either your intuition tells you what's right (presumably "intuiting" what objectively exists) or your society makes it up (constructs it), but clearly both can't be true.

Skepdick
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Re: Border crises

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:33 pm
Misunderstanding, I guess. I thought you said that when a thing is "global" and "tacit," then it's "right."
There you go again. Misunderstanding. I never said such a thing.

I said when something BECOMES global.

Do you understand the difference between being and becoming?
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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henry quirk
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Skep

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm

"What 'objective' means to a scientist is simply 'supported by vast amounts of evidence'."

Indeed.

Fire burns. This is true everywhere on earth, and -- if Reality works the same way there -- on the other side of the universe.

Seems to me: 'a person owns himself' is equally true anywhere and any time.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Skep

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:29 pm
The scientist's aspiration, in trusting "vast amounts of evidence," is that he will thereby come closer to what is objectively true.
Citation needed.
Not needed. Follow the logic.

A scientist is looking for truth. He may not get there, but he tries to get as close as he can. The alternative hypothesis, that scientists are people who are searching for things that are NOT true, things that are delusions or errors, is not tenable. It's pretty obvious, don't you think?

Skepdick
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Re: Skep

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm
A scientist is looking for truth.
I am not of the opinion that science is in the business of truth-seeking.

The rest is a non-sequitur.

The perspective of Model-dependent realism suffices to express my opinion on the matter.

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henry quirk
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In context: (moral) truth is synonymous with (moral) fact

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:39 pm

just clarifyin' my own use of words here

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Border crises

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm
There you go again. Misunderstanding. I never said such a thing.
So these were not your words, two pages ago?

But I can say that if an ideology becomes global and is tacitly accepted, then it's not wrong.
Do you understand the difference between being and becoming?
Absolutely. But it won't solve the problem.

To say that something is "becoming right" because people are starting to think it is, is no better than to say that is "is being right" because they think it is.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Skep

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:42 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:37 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:35 pm
A scientist is looking for truth.
I am not of the opinion that science is in the business of truth-seeking.
I guess we should ask scientists: are you guys all out looking for falsehoods?

My suspicion is that I know their answer. But I can let them speak for themselves.

Skepdick
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Re: Border crises

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:43 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm
There you go again. Misunderstanding. I never said such a thing.
So these were not your words, two pages ago?

But I can say that if an ideology becomes global and is tacitly accepted, then it's not wrong.
Indeed. Those are exactly my words. As I said them.

Not as you misrepresented them.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm
To say that something is "becoming right"
Which is why I didn't say anything is 'becoming right' either.

You literally just quoted what I said. How can you fuck it up so badly?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Border crises

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:53 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:43 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm
There you go again. Misunderstanding. I never said such a thing.
So these were not your words, two pages ago?

But I can say that if an ideology becomes global and is tacitly accepted, then it's not wrong.
Indeed. Those are exactly my words. As I said them.
I thought so.

So what did I miss there? Do you mean I'm to think "not wrong" is not the equivalent of "right"?

I guess you'd best explain, then.

Skepdick
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Re: Border crises

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:02 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:53 pm
So what did I miss there? Do you mean I'm to think "not wrong" is not the equivalent of "right"?
That's entirely up to you and the logic you choose subscribe to.

What you are missing is the significance in the distinction between 'being' and 'becoming'.
And if you are claiming that you aren't committing an anachronistic fallacy, then you ought to factor in change into the equation of moral progress.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Border crises

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:53 pm
So what did I miss there? Do you mean I'm to think "not wrong" is not the equivalent of "right"?
That's entirely up to you and the logic you choose subscribe to.
Not really. It's up to logic.

"Not wrong" is ordinarily a synonym for "right." I guess you could say it's a synonym for "permissible," or something, but that still amounts to a claim that it's "alright" to do, which is again a claim about "rightness."
My point is simply that you are missing the significance in the distinction between 'being' and 'becoming'.
Then help me out there.
...you ought to factor in change into the equation of moral progress.
What index do you use to reveal to you that "moral progress" is happening?

You see, it's the same problem again: you have to have some way of knowing what's "right," or you can't say we're "becoming right" or "going right," because you can't possibly justify a claim to know what "right" means, then.

Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Border crises

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:09 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm
Not really. It's up to logic.
Which one?
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm
Then help me out there.
I tried to! You claimed you required no help.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 pm
Do you understand the difference between being and becoming?
Absolutely.
Last edited by Skepdick on Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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