Why is nazism popular today?

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Why is nazism popular today?

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:37 pm

Atla wrote: A big reason is that humanity only has two options: try eugenics, or accept total extinction.

Humanity has chosen death, perhaps it couldn't have done otherwise. Personally I'll never understand why people want to die so badly, as I want to live, but oh well. It's a wonder we even made it this far but I think time is running out now.
So you'll be fine if the eugenicists decide you are a candidate?

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Arising_uk
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Re: "It's spelled out for the Leftists who deny and lie."

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

henry quirk wrote:'democratic socialism is a far cry from the soviet"

A slightly less offensive turd is still a turd.
By and large it's a turd that grows roses.

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henry quirk
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"By and large it's a turd that grows roses."

Post by henry quirk » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:46 pm

Examples?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "By and large it's a turd that grows roses."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:39 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:46 pm
Examples?
True story.

There was a guy from the local Marxist-Leninist office who used to drop by my local university campus, way back in the '80's. He'd stand in the central quad and yell slogans and hand out tracts.

You'll remember how it was at that time: The Iron Curtain was a thing, and many countries were completely cut off from the rest of the world. Much of what went on, we did not know until after the Berlin Wall fell, and after the former "soviet republics" became independent. So anyway...

Some students said to him, "Why would we want to be like Russia?"

And he said, "Russia's not the right example. They don't do real Socialism."

Naturally, they asked him, "Well, where is real socialism?"

You know what he said?

"Albania."

Yep, that's right: the most medieval, miserable, Socialist disaster of them all was held up as the perfect exemplar of socialist success. And why? Because nobody could check.

AMod
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Re: Why is nazism popular today?

Post by AMod » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Sorry shouldn't get involved, breaks my rules. Won't do it again. :(

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is nazism popular today?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:52 pm

AMod wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:38 pm
Universal healthcare which works out cheaper than many privatised insurance systems
Nope. Only on "up front" costs. Then the government has to take it back in "hidden" taxes. That's a main reason why, for instance, the taxes are so unbelievably high in Canada. As for outcomes, the wait times for something like knee surgery could be a year or two, and you aren't allowed to pay your way up the queue. And you're just a number in the system.

Now, all that being said, if you have a major surgery -- like for cancer, for example -- your family won't go bankrupt in a socialized-medicine system trying to pay for it. But they will have lower net income all their lives because of that.

The truth is that there is no such thing as a free lunch, and there's no such thing as free healthcare.

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henry quirk
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"Universal healthcare which works out cheaper than many privatised insurance systems."

Post by henry quirk » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:47 pm

It may...I don't think so, but: it may.

That's the disconcerting thing about discussing socialism/communism/communitarianism/etc.: both sides immediately jump to 'money' as the measure of success or failure.

From where I stand: the economic successes or failures of socialism/communism/communitarianism/etc. is the last thing to consider.

Socialism/communism/communitarianism/etc. could lead to Ages of Gold and downright whooptedoo Utopia and I would still oppose it.

Why?

Cuz socialism/communism/communitarianism/etc. attempts to make me into sumthin' I am not.

Consider: I own me, I self-direct, I'm responsible for and to myself, if I fail the burden is mine to bear, if I succeed the victory is mine to enjoy.

The socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez 'No, Henry, you are owned, directed, responsible for and to others; when you fail we bear you up and when you succeed it's our success, you are 'member' and 'participant' and never 'individual'.

Simply: I say I'm a man; the socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez I'm a cog.

Now, such a status may appeal to some: I've dealt with a lotta different kinds of people over the years and it seems a significant number would gladly accept bein' 'cog' if they were safe, well-fed, entertained, and cared for. It's a line of thinkin' I find wrong, wrong-headed and more than a little 'evil', but if folks wanna willingly walk through the chutes into the abattoir, well, that's really none of my business...good luck, good riddance.

Where it damn-straight becomes my business is when I'm expected to join them in their death march: I will not.

I ramble...anyway, no, it's not about money, it's about gilded cages (live in one if you like...not me, buddy).

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Universal healthcare which works out cheaper than many privatised insurance systems."

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:14 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:47 pm
Cuz socialism/communism/communitarianism/etc. attempts to make me into sumthin' I am not.

Consider: I own me, I self-direct, I'm responsible for and to myself, if I fail the burden is mine to bear, if I succeed the victory is mine to enjoy.

The socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez 'No, Henry, you are owned, directed, responsible for and to others; when you fail we bear you up and when you succeed it's our success, you are 'member' and 'participant' and never 'individual'.

Simply: I say I'm a man; the socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez I'm a cog.
Yes.

This is central to Leftist ideology...you are NOT an individual, in their view; you are a dumb-terminal fed into by your class, gender, race, whatever. That's why they have no concept of free speech: speech isn't, in their view, an expression of the rational individual, but rather the byproduct of your indoctrination by nurture. You're a construct of your social group, mindlessly parroting what is in the interest of your social group, they would say. So why would they need to guarantee the individuals right to do that?

Of course, one of the big hypocrisies of their position is that they don't think the same is true of them: rather, they assume they have somehow got hold of the master narrative (social constructionism) that explains away everybody else's individuality, but leaves them imperiously on the mountain, high above the sweaty and stupid masses clashing on the plains below them.

And ironically, there's nothing that's more conventional, more indoctrinated and more brainless than this Leftist ideology. For a "master narrative" it's pretty routine and in any case, it's transparently been handed to them by their Leftist indoctrinators. That's why a really original thought is such a rarity among them.

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henry quirk
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"one of the big hypocrisies of their position is that they don't think the same is true of them"

Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:35 am

yeah, these are the 'politburo' types, the technocrats, the *ahem* philosophers

dangerous nimrods

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Re: "Universal healthcare which works out cheaper than many privatised insurance systems."

Post by -1- » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:56 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:47 pm
Consider: I own me, I self-direct, I'm responsible for and to myself, if I fail the burden is mine to bear, if I succeed the victory is mine to enjoy.

The socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez 'No, Henry, you are owned, directed, responsible for and to others; when you fail we bear you up and when you succeed it's our success, you are 'member' and 'participant' and never 'individual'.

Simply: I say I'm a man; the socialist/communist/communitarian/etc. sez I'm a cog.
You are not any more a cog in Communism than you are in a free-marked capitalist system.

I have lived in both. In many ways life in communism leaves more freedom for expression, and in many other ways, it leaves less freedom for expression. I'd say the scale is tilted, favouring western-type democracies.

However, you are nothing more than a cog, Henry. Your society is structured hierarchically; everyone is responsible to some authority, everyone has some power, but basically, people are arranged to perform in a hierarchical fashion.

The best song (yes, song, it is rather philosophical), that describes the sentiment is "We Won't Get Fooled Again" by The Who.

It goes:

Meet the new boss.
Same as the old boss!

No matter what you do, no matter what system you exist in, you must do things you don't really want to do... because of social and financial pressures. And it is someone other than you who tells you what to do.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm

"No matter what you do, no matter what system you exist in, you must do things you don't really want to do... because of social and financial pressures. And it is someone other than you who tells you what to do."

Yeah, that's not my experience at all.

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Immanuel Can
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Re:

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:14 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm
"No matter what you do, no matter what system you exist in, you must do things you don't really want to do... because of social and financial pressures. And it is someone other than you who tells you what to do."

Yeah, that's not my experience at all.
Well, right: it's not anybody's, really. Even people who complain "I had no choice" are usually lying.

For example, financial pressures might constrain some decisions -- but not if you take out huge loans, rob a bank, or decide to want something else instead. That's choice, choice and choice...where's the constraint? Or social pressures...if you're prepared to say to certain other people, "Get lost," or "I don't care what you think," then social pressures reduce sharply or even disappear, in many cases. Our sense of losing options is really often no more then our sense of losing nerve.

It all depends on what one is willing to do. If you are willing to take the consequences, then you can have choices. If you're not, then you feel like a victim.

Walker
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Re: Re:

Post by Walker » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:08 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:14 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm
"No matter what you do, no matter what system you exist in, you must do things you don't really want to do... because of social and financial pressures. And it is someone other than you who tells you what to do."

Yeah, that's not my experience at all.
Well, right: it's not anybody's, really. Even people who complain "I had no choice" are usually lying.

For example, financial pressures might constrain some decisions -- but not if you take out huge loans, rob a bank, or decide to want something else instead. That's choice, choice and choice...where's the constraint? Or social pressures...if you're prepared to say to certain other people, "Get lost," or "I don't care what you think," then social pressures reduce sharply or even disappear, in many cases. Our sense of losing options is really often no more then our sense of losing nerve.

It all depends on what one is willing to do. If you are willing to take the consequences, then you can have choices. If you're not, then you feel like a victim.
Hello.

:)

"That's choice, choice and choice...where's the constraint?"

I took it out of context of your specifics, to examine the principle.

Not seeking to discover that constraint in oneself, is choiceless.
Seeking to change that constraint in oneself, is choiceless.

The cause of this is known when the energy that formerly went to attachment, now must return to awareness, and this creates a loop of self-perpetuating clarity.

The cause of seeking and not seeking is, a noticeable change of perspective, often sudden with a long build-up. That has a myriad of causes. Unadorned access to awareness is the objective of seeking, although that may not be known at the outset, when the hankering to know, begins. Paradoxically, what is found is not only nothing, but the certainty that there is nothing to be found.

*

However the question is, what is the nature of the puppet master moving the strings. Thus, begins the intellectual inquiry into the nature of mind and the nature of personal identity (Self-enquiry).

If you feel you must reply, don’t rush, as attention must go elsewhere. If I’ve missed the intent of your dialogue, apologies. If I’m incomprehensible, no problem here.

*

btw: This is a posting about a specific principle, as stated above, in response to IC.

It is not a defense of Nazism, lest some moron (not IC) get confused.

Glad to participate in a condemnation of Nazism, when time permits.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Re:

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:35 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:08 pm
Hello.

:)

"That's choice, choice and choice...where's the constraint?"

I took it out of context of your specifics, to examine the principle.
What "principle"?
If I’ve missed the intent of your dialogue, apologies. If I’m incomprehensible, no problem here.
Fair enough. I think I'm having a little trouble figuring out what you're saying here. I do think the point you're trying to make is different from mine.

Logik
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Re:

Post by Logik » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:02 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm
"No matter what you do, no matter what system you exist in, you must do things you don't really want to do... because of social and financial pressures. And it is someone other than you who tells you what to do."

Yeah, that's not my experience at all.
As a capitalist you don't exist to fill a gap in demand?

You must be fucking good at selling things people don't want then.

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