POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:49 pm

Eodnhoj7's Alternate wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:17 am
You can think of post-modernism as the rejection of foundationalism. The rejection of a priori truth.
That seems like a very post-modernist way of describing post-modernism.

Logik
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Logik » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:47 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:49 pm
You can think of post-modernism as the rejection of foundationalism. The rejection of a priori truth.
That seems like a very post-modernist way of describing post-modernism.
If you are attributing this to Postmodernism you are missing a few thousand years of philosophy in your repertoire dating as far back as Pyrrho and Carnaedes.

The Munchhausen trillema is a fundamental problem in epistemology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RCIYI9dY1Y

It leads to a CHOICE that you need to make when it comes to your own epistemic grounding: Foundationalism, Coherentism or Infinitism.

Using the words "choice" and "knowledge" in the same sentence should trigger some uncomfortable introspection ;)

The rejection of a priori truth is equivalent to the rejection of foundationalism.

The difference between foundationalism and coherentism boils down to these two questions:
Foundationalists ask: WHAT is knowledge? (ontological question)
Coherentists ask: HOW do we attain knowledge? (behaviorist question)

Or as uwot put it in another thread: it's yer ontology ageinst yer epistmeology.
uwot wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:56 pm
Long story short-science is about what the universe does, which you can observe and measure. Whereas philosophy (in this instance) is about what the universe is. You can make up any old story about what the universe is to explain what it does. It's yer epistemology against yer ontology.
I care more about the HOW rather than the WHAT which is why I call myself a scientist, not a philosopher.

uwot
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by uwot » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:27 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:47 am
uwot wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:56 pm
Long story short-science is about what the universe does, which you can observe and measure. Whereas philosophy (in this instance) is about what the universe is. You can make up any old story about what the universe is to explain what it does. It's yer epistemology against yer ontology.
I care more about the HOW rather than the WHAT which is why I call myself a scientist, not a philosopher.
That is entirely your prerogative.

Alizia
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Alizia » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:57 pm

Dachshund wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:33 pm
As far as my behaviour on this forum is concerned. My posts are written chiefly for my own benefit. I write them in order to facilitate a methodical catharsis of strong negative emotions, especially anger and disgust that have become "bottled up" inside me over time. That is probably why you describe what I write as "venomous"; and that's an accurate depiction because what I spit out is indeed "poison". To explain. There are certain issues that really get to me, - issues that make me extremely angry, frustrated and resentful; the march of Postmodernism in the West is one such example. You see,the Postmodernist agenda is, IMO, very straight forward. Postmodernism is a dangerous political ideology, and the way I see it, it has only one prime objective, namely, to destroy Western civilisation. The strategies and tactics it uses to go about doing this are devious, mendacious and treacherous in the extreme. It preys, for example, on the naivety and implicit trust that young people in colleges and universities place in their professors; professors who are not bone fide educators, but political agents who see their principal role as being to indoctrinate their charges with a hateful, nihilistic, violent world-view that implores them to believe that: all of the cultural achievements; all of the fundamental moral and aesthetic values; all of the key institutions and civil mores of their native Western society are rotten and wicked to the core and must therefore be destroyed. Indoctrination that tells 18 and 19 year-old youths that the meaning of life is nothing more than a destructive power game, a battlefield where those groups who have more power crush those groups who have less. It teaches them that everything their culture has ever called beautiful, noble, inspiring, sacred, Good, heroic, valuable, decent and life - affirming is SHIT.
Being new to this forum -- I registered long ago but never posted -- a post I wrote which included a review of the book Dangerous Minds by Ronald Beiner is still being reviewed by the administration. I am not sure if this comment will post or not until I have been "approved" but I will still try to comment.

I hope that you will examine that post when it does appear.

What you have written makes sense to me. But I admit to being confused about a few things. Is Postmodernism really an identifiable thing? Is it really a perspective? Can one create a political ideology out of it? Is it "actionable"? I understand the necessity for a critique Marxist and its influence in academia, and I can see that so-called cultural Marxism is a thing that could be considered, yet I find it hard to put a finger on. That is, it seems more like a "mood" rather than a defined outlook.

Also, and while I do agree that "Western Civilization" could be in a process of being undermined (as all civilizations suffer decadence and decline), I do get the sense that those who say they carry the torch of Liberal Ideology believe that they are not undermining or destroying civilization, but rather trying to improve it or even to protect it.

I have some pretty strong doubts about those on the so-called Extreme Right who are trying to form a political ideology to combat the decadence of liberal culture (the loss of nerve). I see some part of their "bottled up anger" as being just that (which might be understandable) but also they are, in their unique ways, romanticists. In reference to Nietzsche I don't see how this could be denied. And though I don't konw a great deal about Heidegger I'd imagine that it is true in his case.

Doesn't it seem to come down to a question of Values?

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Greta
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Greta » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:20 pm

An example of postmodernism is the disregard for scientific evidence as if all information was equal. Thus, the myths of Abrahamic tribes are treated as equal by evangelists, or even superior, to all of the learning achieved globally since that time.

Another example is flat Earthism - the idea that all of the serious scientific work done is less valuable than an individual's intuition. The Dunning Kruger effect seems to be in play with the above.

Another exampe: all people are equal. Obviously not. However, to pin intelligence on race, gender or culture might make the occasional yellow or white boy feel good about himself but it's irrelevant for policy responses due to the huge diversity of abilities within any large portion of the population. That is, there is more variance within those different populations than between them. Otherwise you might as well devise similar policy for the morbidly obese, whose IQ points are probably a tad lower than the average.

It's hard to care. People convince themselves of all kinds of untrue things in the course of a life. The important thing is that we each notice the errors as we go, and learn from them. The alternative is to defend the indefensible with spurious rationalisations.

Never mind the US, they have ceded world leadership to China and now we can only hope that nation matures as much as the US is retreating into infantilist fantasies.

Alizia
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Alizia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:40 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:20 pm
An example of postmodernism is the disregard for scientific evidence as if all information was equal. Thus, the myths of Abrahamic tribes are treated as equal by evangelists, or even superior, to all of the learning achieved globally since that time.
It would appear then that you define postmodernism as an epistemological crisis? Would you say that postmodernism is made postmodern because of the advent of science and all the sets of new facts that it brings forward? It would seem then that you privilege science as the 'supreme epistemological tool'. Is that right?

I would assume, however, that a person could highly value science and its discoveries (facts), while at the same time holding to beliefs or notions that arose in former times and that have no connection to science?

If postmodernism is epistemological confusion -- and I think I do grasp what you are saying -- and if science and scientific view bring all manner of different beliefs into focus and render them "absurd", then it follows that one only needs more science, or those facts derived from science, to then winnow out truth and to be able to deal in truth-terms. What do you think?

Logik
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:45 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:20 pm
An example of postmodernism is the disregard for scientific evidence as if all information was equal. Thus, the myths of Abrahamic tribes are treated as equal by evangelists, or even superior, to all of the learning achieved globally since that time.

Another example is flat Earthism - the idea that all of the serious scientific work done is less valuable than an individual's intuition. The Dunning Kruger effect seems to be in play with the above.
You may be missing the Forrest for the trees here.

There are now THREE "philosophers" on this forum who seem to have objected (and some - continue to vehemently argued AGAINST) my claim: I KNOW THAT MURDER IS WRONG.

Their objections are on grounds - sundry. Ranging from linguistic to epistemic purity.

If we can't even agree as to the value of human life - what chance does science stand?!?

To point fingers at postmodernism is to externalize blame.

Alizia
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Alizia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:13 am

If we can't even agree as to the value of human life - what chance does science stand?!?
Science and its methods or its attainments do not stand or fall on whether human life is given special value, or not. I mean, I am just stating what seems to me to be a truth and a fact. Not advocating murder.

Logik
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:22 am

Alizia wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:13 am
If we can't even agree as to the value of human life - what chance does science stand?!?
Science and its methods or its attainments do not stand or fall on whether human life is given special value, or not. I mean, I am just stating what seems to me to be a truth and a fact. Not advocating murder.
Science cannot be justified except on its pragmatic value - utility. It works. It predicts. It does what it says on the box. Is it 'true'? That's a question for philosophy.

It is as much of a choice to NOT value science as it is a choice to NOT value life.

But a more pertinent question: Is science not FOR humans BY humans? If not - then what is it for?

Belinda
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Belinda » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:21 am

Postmodernism is progression through:

dark ages

early modern

scientific enlightenment

modern

postmodern.

The transition that most affects us here and now is modern to postmodern. Science is modern as t relies upon determinism , induction, deduction, ad scientific method. Postmodern people are sceptical about the truth of scientific theories because they view the scientific method, and even in some cases, deterministic and deductive methods as embroiled within the prevailing culture.

I said "prevailing" and postmodernists often regard the prevailing culture to be the powerful culture . Thus postmodernism is like another name for the limit of tolerance . Some people cling to a culture, often the culture that has given them power, while not tolerating other cultures which may be , not right or wrong, but different.

My remarks apply also to architecture and other art forms.I'd distrust anyone's reasoning who has not at least progressed through postmodernism and decided upon their version of reality accompanied by humility that was enjoined by Socrates.

Logik
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:49 am

Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:21 am
Postmodernism is progression through:

dark ages

early modern

scientific enlightenment

modern

postmodern.

The transition that most affects us here and now is modern to postmodern. Science is modern as t relies upon determinism , induction, deduction, ad scientific method. Postmodern people are sceptical about the truth of scientific theories because they view the scientific method, and even in some cases, deterministic and deductive methods as embroiled within the prevailing culture.

I said "prevailing" and postmodernists often regard the prevailing culture to be the powerful culture . Thus postmodernism is like another name for the limit of tolerance . Some people cling to a culture, often the culture that has given them power, while not tolerating other cultures which may be , not right or wrong, but different.

My remarks apply also to architecture and other art forms.I'd distrust anyone's reasoning who has not at least progressed through postmodernism and decided upon their version of reality accompanied by humility that was enjoined by Socrates.
I quite like that.

Postmodernism is basically being stuck in the destructive phase. "Everything we have is crap - lets burn it down and start afresh!".
This is deconstruction at its worst. This is atheism at its worst - trying to burn down theism, failing to acknowledge that it serves any purpose whatsoever.

The way forward is to build alternatives of equivalent value - let people see the value and CHOOSE it for themselves.
If you want to put an end to theism - find out what purpose it serves and present a better solution!

Build, do not destroy. Let the old be forgotten. Let it rust all on its own.

Alizia
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Alizia » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:32 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:21 am
Postmodern people are sceptical about the truth of scientific theories because they view the scientific method, and even in some cases, deterministic and deductive methods, as embroiled within the prevailing culture.
Somewhat differently than you, and more perhaps as Greta has explained it, I might describe a postmodern condition or a postmodern mind, and I would describe postmodernism as the simultaneous existence of competing, and dissimilar, knowledge-systems.

I suppose I would say that there are different levels to it, depending on the person who is subject to it. An unconscious person without self-reflection would have a difficult time discerning the postmodern condition of her own mind and perceptual system. Two -- or more --contradictory and incommensurate notions or ideas could exist in that person's view but which would appear absurd to a self-conscious onlooker. I suppose that is where the idea of the absurd arises?
Logik wrote:Postmodernism is basically being stuck in the destructive phase. "Everything we have is crap - lets burn it down and start afresh!" This is deconstruction at its worst. This is atheism at its worst - trying to burn down theism, failing to acknowledge that it serves any purpose whatsoever.
I do not see 'the postmodern condition' as being necessarily either destructive or as having any specific intention. Might you be referring to something more active? Wouldn't you be referring, perhaps, to nihilism or to some sort of despondency which then turns to 'tearing down' of existent structures?

If atheists attempt to undermine or to expose what they see as the false-arguments of theists, they at the least do not see their effort as destructive, but rather 'creative replacement' of a sound view for an unsound one.

But the will to undermine existing structures -- is that not more properly a revolutionary will that has its origins on the French Revolution and the Enlightenment?

Belinda
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Belinda » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:35 pm

I agree with Logik "the destructive phase". To destroy in order to build anew.

Dachshund wrote:
Postmodernism is a dangerous political ideology, and the way I see it, it has only one prime objective, namely, to destroy Western civilisation. The strategies and tactics it uses to go about doing this are devious, mendacious and treacherous in the extreme.
It would be dangerous if the postmodern politician remains in that destructive phase. But are there any postmodern politicians? I doubt it!

Political decisions occasionally have to be made all of a sudden like in Brexit- ravaged Britain, or after Chamberlain's return from Munich + Poland in 1938. So the postmodern stance is unsuited to practical politics in peace or in war.

Pomo is not a political ideology. Pomo and ideologue are opposite stances. A postmodernist is impartial by definition .Dachshund had better find another target for his "devious, mendacious and treacherous".

Belinda
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Belinda » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:39 pm

Alizia, Logik wrote
The way forward is to build alternatives of equivalent value - let people see the value and CHOOSE it for themselves.
If you want to put an end to theism - find out what purpose it serves and present a better solution!

Build, do not destroy. Let the old be forgotten. Let it rust all on its own.
This isn't nihilistic on the contrary it's a proper description of evolution of thought, or revolution of paradigm.

Logik
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Re: POSTMODERNISM - AMERICA'S ENEMY WITH

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:45 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:39 pm
Alizia, Logik wrote
The way forward is to build alternatives of equivalent value - let people see the value and CHOOSE it for themselves.
If you want to put an end to theism - find out what purpose it serves and present a better solution!

Build, do not destroy. Let the old be forgotten. Let it rust all on its own.
This isn't nihilistic on the contrary it's a proper description of evolution of thought, or revolution of paradigm.
Nihilism is a stage. Usually at the end of the scientific stage. Once you work your way to nihilism you still have a choice.

Stay there or move on.

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