DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

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Dachshund
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 pm

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Dachshund » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Dachshund wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:04 pm
artisticsolution wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:24 pm


Here are two facts for you to consider...

FACT (1)

Over the past 1000 years of its existence, Western (white European) civilization has been the single most war-ridden, war-dominated and militaristic civilization in history.

FACT (2)

Western (white/European) culture is objectively superior in every respect (rational, moral, aesthetic, etc.) to every other world high culture that has ever existed in the entire history of human civilization. No other ethnic/racial group has ever produced a culture/civilization that even comes close to rivalling the power, beauty, nobility and glory of that created by the white Western European race.

Now, tell me, "Aristotle", what inferences do you draw when you add FACT (1) to FACT (2) ?

One inference II draw is that if you think the white man in America will passively succumb to genocide at the hands of inferior racial groups like:the black African-American; the Arab Muslim; or the Mexican Hispanic, etc; if you think that when demographic "push" really comes to "shove" he will offer no resistance, that he will just meekly surrender his identity (and existence) as a proud, white, Western man along with all of his glorious cultural inheritance ( i.e; the legacy unique values; traditions; institutions; moral principles; social manners and mores passed down to him by his forefathers, those men who forged human history's greatest civilization) to a mob of grubby savages (i.e. people like YOU), THINK AGAIN.

Regards


Dachshund
Given that you have now explicitly stated other races are inferior, can we now describe you as a White Supremacist against your previous advice?

From what data do you derive the FACTTTTT(1) about most militaristic civilizations? I can't see any real justification for it given that Sparta was over 1000 years ago, and in the last millennium we've had the Mongols. That's before Veritas Aquafresh rolls out his general complaint list about Islam.

Describe a culture as superior is to make what is called a normative judgment. That is normative as opposed to objective. So by definition FACCCCTTTT(2) is false.





Dear Flashdangerpants,



There are only two reasons that I have to believe that anything exists:


(1): I can see it - it's observable, or (2): there is something else I can observe which cannot be explained without the assumption that this other things exists.

So, I believe in elephants because I can see them, and I believe in (invisible) waves of Electro-Magnetic Radiation( EMR), because without them, the fact that my television works would be a miracle, and I do not believe in miracles. So I believe in these invisible waves of EMR that scientists tell me exist.

When someone says racial group A is superior to racial group B; or racial group A has more goodness than racial group B, the terms "superior" and "goodness" fail both of my tests. ( I cannot see "superior" or "goodness").


If a boy scout helps a little old lady across a busy road, for instance, I cannot literally see the "goodness" of his action in the same way I can tell how long it took him by looking at my wristwatch.

We don't have to assume that superiority and goodness exist to explain anything that happens in nature. We do things because we think they're right or wrong, but what is REALLY making us act is not the right and the wrong, but our beliefs and convictions, and these beliefs and convictions can be explained by evolution.


When someone says "A" is superior to "B", 99% of the time they do not say this in a vacuum. Most comparisons we make are made with reference to some antecedently agreed upon standards - some sort of OBSERVABLE property that we are using as our standard of excellence. For example if I say a particular model of an Apple computer is superior to its IMB counterpart, this judgement is typically based on certain commonly accepted standards like "speed" and "user friendliness" for example. The judgement of which computer is superior is not made relative to some cosmic standard or in the eyes of God.


When it comes to comparing races, there are four, main, commonly accepted , agreed upon standard that are used to make judgements of worth. These standards are : INFLUENCE; EMULATION; EFFICIENCY and POWER. When we apply these standards we discover that the White Western European race is indeed superior to all others. Let me briefly demonstrate below...


INFLUENCE

This refers to how much difference a racial group has made in the world's history. It is a clear and concrete fact that White Western Europeans are more important - more superior - by this standard than Blacks or Asians or Hispanics. Had the Black African races never existed, Africa may have been different, but Asia and the US ( also the UK, Canada, Australia, etc.) would not have been very different. Had the Asian races (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc) never existed the world would look quite different but it would still be recognisable. If Western Europeans had never existed the world would be UNIMAGINABLY different. Imagine for your self what the world would be like if we were to subtract: Western science and technology, transport (automobiles, jet airliners), communications (telephone, radio, internet), electronic banking, exploration, medications, weapons/explosives, every child in schools across the world is taught how to plot points on the "X" and "Y" axes in their maths classes, without Rene Descartes (a Western European) this would be the case.

Western man has had the greatest influence on the world by far, the white European race has made far more difference than any other racial/ethnic group.


EMULATION


Some critics might say that the white Western European race has only managed to exercise the tremendous influence that it has across the world due to it long history of violent colonisation, imperialism and armed conquest; in other words that the West FORCED its influence on other peoples of the world. This is not true, because the fact is that every other race and culture desires the control over nature that Western scientific modes of though has made possible. They also want the technology that Western science has made possible. They also want western medicines, low rates of infant mortality, longer life-spans, higher productivity, freedom, liberal democracy, Western-style justice systems, higher standards of living and so on. All of the world's other racial groups living in Africa, China, Brazil, Mexico, Cuba, Islamic states like Saudi Arabia and so on strive to emulate the West. If you were to give a non-white third world nation a magic wand and tell them that if they waved it, they would have a quality of life the same as that enjoyed by a typical middle-class American living in a white - majority city in the US, they would certainly wave the wand. Even when it comes to personal traits everyone seems to agree that the traits in which white Western Europeans excel , like intelligence (g-factor) are valuable and highly desirable.

EFFICIENCY

One thing is better than another - more EFFICIENT - if it is better at achieving some tacit end.

For example rubber is a better (more EFFICIENT) insulator than wool.

Generally speaking the West has found better, more efficient means to myriad important ends/goals, for example: crop rotation in agriculture is more efficient than praying to the Sun God; the use of electricity and the electric light bulb/ fluorescent tube to control ambient lighting are far better than candles of fires (electricity works out being cheaper, it is also safer and it is easier to control); it is more efficient to transport oneself in a motor car travelling at 60 mph, than riding a horse at 10 mph or walking at 3 mph. From the cosmic point of view there is no "right" or "wrong" about any of this. The point is that all sides agree, they agree that if you value food crop rotation is a better means to the end than praying to a Sun God. All side in a debate would agree that achieving the goal of transporting oneself 30 miles from A to B is better accomplished using a motor car than by walking on foot. There is nothing to argue about here, for practical purposes, everyone agrees. Finally Western morality, which places great value on the principle of justice is more efficient than the morality of many coloured races/nations. Some recent research in human behavioural science has found that Westerners tend have an innate sense of equity/fairness which is efficient in the sense that it ultimately leads to greater wealth; the opposite was the case for more egocentric, impulsive, short-term focused personalities.


POWER


If I form an army of 1000 White European Westerners and pit then against an army of 1000 Black Africans or any other non-White race, with the stipulation that each army was only allowed to use the weapons that its race had developed, obviously the Western army would crush all others. Western man has a long history of engaging in war; and Western soldiers are highly skilled combatants displaying remarkable: courage; intelligence;discipline/audacity; sense of higher purpose.

In conclusion, there you have four objective, widely (in not universally) accepted and agreed upon standards for evaluating the excellence of different human races. As you can see for yourself, the fact all support the claim that the white Western European race is objectively superior to all others.

Do you agree? If not, please explain why.

(PS: I explain why The West is has been history's most militaristic culture in a separate post).

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:26 am

Dachshund wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Dachshund wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:04 pm


Here are two facts for you to consider...

FACT (1)

Over the past 1000 years of its existence, Western (white European) civilization has been the single most war-ridden, war-dominated and militaristic civilization in history.

FACT (2)

Western (white/European) culture is objectively superior in every respect (rational, moral, aesthetic, etc.) to every other world high culture that has ever existed in the entire history of human civilization. No other ethnic/racial group has ever produced a culture/civilization that even comes close to rivalling the power, beauty, nobility and glory of that created by the white Western European race.

Now, tell me, "Aristotle", what inferences do you draw when you add FACT (1) to FACT (2) ?

One inference II draw is that if you think the white man in America will passively succumb to genocide at the hands of inferior racial groups like:the black African-American; the Arab Muslim; or the Mexican Hispanic, etc; if you think that when demographic "push" really comes to "shove" he will offer no resistance, that he will just meekly surrender his identity (and existence) as a proud, white, Western man along with all of his glorious cultural inheritance ( i.e; the legacy unique values; traditions; institutions; moral principles; social manners and mores passed down to him by his forefathers, those men who forged human history's greatest civilization) to a mob of grubby savages (i.e. people like YOU), THINK AGAIN.

Regards


Dachshund
Given that you have now explicitly stated other races are inferior, can we now describe you as a White Supremacist against your previous advice?

From what data do you derive the FACTTTTT(1) about most militaristic civilizations? I can't see any real justification for it given that Sparta was over 1000 years ago, and in the last millennium we've had the Mongols. That's before Veritas Aquafresh rolls out his general complaint list about Islam.

Describe a culture as superior is to make what is called a normative judgment. That is normative as opposed to objective. So by definition FACCCCTTTT(2) is false.





Dear Flashdangerpants,



There are only two reasons that I have to believe that anything exists:


(1): I can see it - it's observable, or (2): there is something else I can observe which cannot be explained without the assumption that this other things exists.

So, I believe in elephants because I can see them, and I believe in (invisible) waves of Electro-Magnetic Radiation( EMR), because without them, the fact that my television works would be a miracle, and I do not believe in miracles. So I believe in these invisible waves of EMR that scientists tell me exist.

When someone says racial group A is superior to racial group B; or racial group A has more goodness than racial group B, the terms "superior" and "goodness" fail both of my tests. ( I cannot see "superior" or "goodness").


If a boy scout helps a little old lady across a busy road, for instance, I cannot literally see the "goodness" of his action in the same way I can tell how long it took him by looking at my wristwatch.

We don't have to assume that superiority and goodness exist to explain anything that happens in nature. We do things because we think they're right or wrong, but what is REALLY making us act is not the right and the wrong, but our beliefs and convictions, and these beliefs and convictions can be explained by evolution.


When someone says "A" is superior to "B", 99% of the time they do not say this in a vacuum. Most comparisons we make are made with reference to some antecedently agreed upon standards - some sort of OBSERVABLE property that we are using as our standard of excellence. For example if I say a particular model of an Apple computer is superior to its IMB counterpart, this judgement is typically based on certain commonly accepted standards like "speed" and "user friendliness" for example. The judgement of which computer is superior is not made relative to some cosmic standard or in the eyes of God.


When it comes to comparing races, there are four, main, commonly accepted , agreed upon standard that are used to make judgements of worth. These standards are : INFLUENCE; EMULATION; EFFICIENCY and POWER. When we apply these standards we discover that the White Western European race is indeed superior to all others. Let me briefly demonstrate below...


INFLUENCE

This refers to how much difference a racial group has made in the world's history. It is a clear and concrete fact that White Western Europeans are more important - more superior - by this standard than Blacks or Asians or Hispanics. Had the Black African races never existed, Africa may have been different, but Asia and the US ( also the UK, Canada, Australia, etc.) would not have been very different. Had the Asian races (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, etc) never existed the world would look quite different but it would still be recognisable. If Western Europeans had never existed the world would be UNIMAGINABLY different. Imagine for your self what the world would be like if we were to subtract: Western science and technology, transport (automobiles, jet airliners), communications (telephone, radio, internet), electronic banking, exploration, medications, weapons/explosives, every child in schools across the world is taught how to plot points on the "X" and "Y" axes in their maths classes, without Rene Descartes (a Western European) this would be the case.

Western man has had the greatest influence on the world by far, the white European race has made far more difference than any other racial/ethnic group.


EMULATION


Some critics might say that the white Western European race has only managed to exercise the tremendous influence that it has across the world due to it long history of violent colonisation, imperialism and armed conquest; in other words that the West FORCED its influence on other peoples of the world. This is not true, because the fact is that every other race and culture desires the control over nature that Western scientific modes of though has made possible. They also want the technology that Western science has made possible. They also want western medicines, low rates of infant mortality, longer life-spans, higher productivity, freedom, liberal democracy, Western-style justice systems, higher standards of living and so on. All of the world's other racial groups living in Africa, China, Brazil, Mexico, Cuba, Islamic states like Saudi Arabia and so on strive to emulate the West. If you were to give a non-white third world nation a magic wand and tell them that if they waved it, they would have a quality of life the same as that enjoyed by a typical middle-class American living in a white - majority city in the US, they would certainly wave the wand. Even when it comes to personal traits everyone seems to agree that the traits in which white Western Europeans excel , like intelligence (g-factor) are valuable and highly desirable.

EFFICIENCY

One thing is better than another - more EFFICIENT - if it is better at achieving some tacit end.

For example rubber is a better (more EFFICIENT) insulator than wool.

Generally speaking the West has found better, more efficient means to myriad important ends/goals, for example: crop rotation in agriculture is more efficient than praying to the Sun God; the use of electricity and the electric light bulb/ fluorescent tube to control ambient lighting are far better than candles of fires (electricity works out being cheaper, it is also safer and it is easier to control); it is more efficient to transport oneself in a motor car travelling at 60 mph, than riding a horse at 10 mph or walking at 3 mph. From the cosmic point of view there is no "right" or "wrong" about any of this. The point is that all sides agree, they agree that if you value food crop rotation is a better means to the end than praying to a Sun God. All side in a debate would agree that achieving the goal of transporting oneself 30 miles from A to B is better accomplished using a motor car than by walking on foot. There is nothing to argue about here, for practical purposes, everyone agrees. Finally Western morality, which places great value on the principle of justice is more efficient than the morality of many coloured races/nations. Some recent research in human behavioural science has found that Westerners tend have an innate sense of equity/fairness which is efficient in the sense that it ultimately leads to greater wealth; the opposite was the case for more egocentric, impulsive, short-term focused personalities.


POWER


If I form an army of 1000 White European Westerners and pit then against an army of 1000 Black Africans or any other non-White race, with the stipulation that each army was only allowed to use the weapons that its race had developed, obviously the Western army would crush all others. Western man has a long history of engaging in war; and Western soldiers are highly skilled combatants displaying remarkable: courage; intelligence;discipline/audacity; sense of higher purpose.

In conclusion, there you have four objective, widely (in not universally) accepted and agreed upon standards for evaluating the excellence of different human races. As you can see for yourself, the fact all support the claim that the white Western European race is objectively superior to all others.

Do you agree? If not, please explain why.

(PS: I explain why The West is has been history's most militaristic culture in a separate post).
Listen you moron, if black Africans had never existed then no one else would have either.
Fuck off.

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Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:23 am

Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 am
Indeed. There's nothing like having triads, South African racists, Somalian gangs, Colombian drug cartels, radical muslims, and Russian mafia etc. etc. added to the mix for a bit of 'diversity'. We can just group hug them and they will become good citizens.
Why focus on the minuscule minority who should be picked up during screening processes when they enter the country? The vast majority of migrants the US and elsewhere don't fill these criteria.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 am

Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:23 am
Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 am
Indeed. There's nothing like having triads, South African racists, Somalian gangs, Colombian drug cartels, radical muslims, and Russian mafia etc. etc. added to the mix for a bit of 'diversity'. We can just group hug them and they will become good citizens.
Why focus on the minuscule minority who should be picked up during screening processes when they enter the country? The vast majority of migrants the US and elsewhere don't fill these criteria.
Of course they are a minority, but that's enough isn't it??

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:12 am

Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 am
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:23 am
Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 am
Indeed. There's nothing like having triads, South African racists, Somalian gangs, Colombian drug cartels, radical muslims, and Russian mafia etc. etc. added to the mix for a bit of 'diversity'. We can just group hug them and they will become good citizens.
Why focus on the minuscule minority who should be picked up during screening processes when they enter the country? The vast majority of migrants the US and elsewhere don't fill these criteria.
Of course they are a minority, but that's enough isn't it??
That's why they are usually picked up during the screening process, hence the vast majority of the US's violence is home grown rather than imported.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:45 am

Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:12 am
Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 am
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:23 am


Why focus on the minuscule minority who should be picked up during screening processes when they enter the country? The vast majority of migrants the US and elsewhere don't fill these criteria.
Of course they are a minority, but that's enough isn't it??
That's why they are usually picked up during the screening process, hence the vast majority of the US's violence is home grown rather than imported.
True. I don't know what they are always whining about. The paranoid US has very strict immigration policies.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:50 am

Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:45 am
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:12 am
Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:33 am


Of course they are a minority, but that's enough isn't it??
That's why they are usually picked up during the screening process, hence the vast majority of the US's violence is home grown rather than imported.
True. I don't know what they are always whining about. The paranoid US has very strict immigration policies.
The Mexican border is porous. While Mexicans moving north obviously don't pose the security threat being played up today, they do pose a threat to some jobs with dodgy fly-by-night businesses that undercut locals by ignoring OH&S, not paying taxes and generally operating as "cowboy" outfits.

Generally when things go bad societies look for people to blame who are not themselves or the leaders they'd trusted and been duped by.

FlashDangerpants
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:20 pm

Dachshund wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Describe a culture as superior is to make what is called a normative judgment. That is normative as opposed to objective. So by definition FACCCCTTTT(2) is false.[/b]
When someone says "A" is superior to "B", 99% of the time they do not say this in a vacuum. Most comparisons we make are made with reference to some antecedently agreed upon standards - some sort of OBSERVABLE property that we are using as our standard of excellence. For example if I say a particular model of an Apple computer is superior to its IMB counterpart, this judgement is typically based on certain commonly accepted standards like "speed" and "user friendliness" for example. The judgement of which computer is superior is not made relative to some cosmic standard or in the eyes of God.


When it comes to comparing races, there are four, main, commonly accepted , agreed upon standard that are used to make judgements of worth. These standards are : INFLUENCE; EMULATION; EFFICIENCY and POWER. When we apply these standards we discover that the White Western European race is indeed superior to all others. Let me briefly demonstrate below...

[...]
Do you agree? If not, please explain why.
You can have a widely accepted scheme for evaluating X as Y, and you can argue that it is reasonable, well grounded, covers all the important bases and so on. But the scheme is not made objective by any of this, those choices are still subjective. Most of the arguing in a philosophy of ethics forum is basically about that sort of thing.

Consider art. Is this piece of music which almost everyone thinks brilliant: Beethoven's 9th Ode to Joy
Objectively better than my favourite song today: Skinny Puppy, Harsh Stone White
Any reasonable man would note that billions of people find the first very pleasing and artistically fulfilling.
Few really appreciate the excellence of the other one, it is tonally horrific and almost impossible to enjoy.
But it is my favourite song and there's no way to establish that it shouldn't be, it doesn't even make sense to suppose that I could be in error here.

To be properly objective, there would need to be some external measure that wasn't chosen by people at all, rather than a measure sort of agreed by a committee. The universe, in some manner would need to have an opinion on the matter, or else it is subjective by nature. Often it is fine in most cases to overlook such objections because they are for nit-picking philosophers only and nothing is riding on the question.

The entire legacy of races and cultures is not the sort of thing where that escape can apply though. There are far too many variables that can be asserted without hope of justification by anyone who has any opinion at all. I have no real interest in why you chose to exclude Spain from your category of white people and white culture, I just don't think Spanish racists would agree with you and nobody could really come up with a properly objective reason for either idea. Your matrix includes some questionable vectors, but excludes countless others which are neither more nor less questionable, just a matter of preference. Some would want to add spirituality, or one-ness with the environment, or whatever. You can say your committee rejects those amendments, but not a 'universe says no' reason why.

So Beethoven is superior to Ekinny Puppy if the metric is "what tune should we use in a chocolate commercial to sell more lumps of fudge", but it isn't if the question is "what CD would FDP like for Christmas? Do they still make CD players?, is that a thing? I heard vinyl was making a comeback". And the question of "which race is superior?" really only has an answer if you are into the idea of racial superiority at all and prepared to manufacture a scneario designed to deliver on that subjective want.

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Lacewing
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm

Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:50 am
hence the vast majority of the US's violence is home grown rather than imported.
Yes...and there's violence in every sector of American life, unleashed in all directions, yet somehow that doesn't get as much government attention as building a wall to keep out people who are simply trying to find a better life for themselves. It's a big fucking game. Our biggest problems aren't OUTSIDE of our borders! The MONSTER is INSIDE the house! :twisted:
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:50 am
Generally when things go bad societies look for people to blame who are not themselves or the leaders they'd trusted and been duped by.
Yep...we love to blame everyone else rather than look at our own crazy crap. Yet, we are personally responsible for believing and perpetuating stories and games without CONTINUALLY QUESTIONING ALL OF IT.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:03 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:50 am
hence the vast majority of the US's violence is home grown rather than imported.
Yes...and there's violence in every sector of American life, unleashed in all directions, yet somehow that doesn't get as much government attention as building a wall to keep out people who are simply trying to find a better life for themselves. It's a big fucking game. Our biggest problems aren't OUTSIDE of our borders! The MONSTER is INSIDE the house! :twisted:
Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:50 am
Generally when things go bad societies look for people to blame who are not themselves or the leaders they'd trusted and been duped by.
Yep...we love to blame everyone else rather than look at our own crazy crap. Yet, we are personally responsible for believing and perpetuating stories and games without CONTINUALLY QUESTIONING ALL OF IT.
Why such outrage over some wall? Americans have the right to allow anyone they want (or not) into their country, as does every country. What's so horrible about Mexico anyway? Shouldn't they try to make a 'better life' in their own country, instead of thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (wall)?
Uncontrolled immigration would mean all the 'nice' countries get filled up mighty quickly (and ruined mighty quickly) while the undesirable ones empty out. That's not good for anyone, least of all the planet. One could argue that this is already happening.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:12 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:20 pm
Dachshund wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 am
FlashDangerpants wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:07 pm
Describe a culture as superior is to make what is called a normative judgment. That is normative as opposed to objective. So by definition FACCCCTTTT(2) is false.[/b]
When someone says "A" is superior to "B", 99% of the time they do not say this in a vacuum. Most comparisons we make are made with reference to some antecedently agreed upon standards - some sort of OBSERVABLE property that we are using as our standard of excellence. For example if I say a particular model of an Apple computer is superior to its IMB counterpart, this judgement is typically based on certain commonly accepted standards like "speed" and "user friendliness" for example. The judgement of which computer is superior is not made relative to some cosmic standard or in the eyes of God.


When it comes to comparing races, there are four, main, commonly accepted , agreed upon standard that are used to make judgements of worth. These standards are : INFLUENCE; EMULATION; EFFICIENCY and POWER. When we apply these standards we discover that the White Western European race is indeed superior to all others. Let me briefly demonstrate below...

[...]
Do you agree? If not, please explain why.
You can have a widely accepted scheme for evaluating X as Y, and you can argue that it is reasonable, well grounded, covers all the important bases and so on. But the scheme is not made objective by any of this, those choices are still subjective. Most of the arguing in a philosophy of ethics forum is basically about that sort of thing.

Consider art. Is this piece of music which almost everyone thinks brilliant: Beethoven's 9th Ode to Joy
Objectively better than my favourite song today: Skinny Puppy, Harsh Stone White
Any reasonable man would note that billions of people find the first very pleasing and artistically fulfilling.
Few really appreciate the excellence of the other one, it is tonally horrific and almost impossible to enjoy.
But it is my favourite song and there's no way to establish that it shouldn't be, it doesn't even make sense to suppose that I could be in error here.

To be properly objective, there would need to be some external measure that wasn't chosen by people at all, rather than a measure sort of agreed by a committee. The universe, in some manner would need to have an opinion on the matter, or else it is subjective by nature. Often it is fine in most cases to overlook such objections because they are for nit-picking philosophers only and nothing is riding on the question.

The entire legacy of races and cultures is not the sort of thing where that escape can apply though. There are far too many variables that can be asserted without hope of justification by anyone who has any opinion at all. I have no real interest in why you chose to exclude Spain from your category of white people and white culture, I just don't think Spanish racists would agree with you and nobody could really come up with a properly objective reason for either idea. Your matrix includes some questionable vectors, but excludes countless others which are neither more nor less questionable, just a matter of preference. Some would want to add spirituality, or one-ness with the environment, or whatever. You can say your committee rejects those amendments, but not a 'universe says no' reason why.

So Beethoven is superior to Ekinny Puppy if the metric is "what tune should we use in a chocolate commercial to sell more lumps of fudge", but it isn't if the question is "what CD would FDP like for Christmas? Do they still make CD players?, is that a thing? I heard vinyl was making a comeback". And the question of "which race is superior?" really only has an answer if you are into the idea of racial superiority at all and prepared to manufacture a scneario designed to deliver on that subjective want.
Then I assume you wouldn't object if someone said they just don't like Chinese people. Or white people. Or black people. You can't stop people from having an opinion on other humans any more than you can stop someone from liking a song. By the way, that song of yours still follows the basic rules of classical music theory and chord progression.
Last edited by Frank N Stein on Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:28 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:03 pm
Why such outrage over some wall? Americans have the right to allow anyone they want (or not) into their country, as does every country. What's so horrible about Mexico anyway? Shouldn't they try to make a 'better life' in their own country, instead of thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence (wall)?
Uncontrolled immigration would mean all the 'nice' countries get filled up mighty quickly (and ruined mighty quickly) while the undesirable ones empty out. That's not good for anyone, least of all the planet. One could argue that this is already happening.
Most of the discussion about the wall is symbolic. Would it prevent drugs entering the country? Nope, they arrive in containers at ports. Would it prevent illegal immigration? Sort of, but only the dirt poor cross that way, everyone else gets a tourist visa and a flight and then neglects to go home. Would it reduce crime? Not likely, statistically immigrants are less likely to commit crime than the locals are. Do unskilled immigrants actually push down wages on aggregate? Only in a very small way, and only for a particular category of local, basically there seems to be a marginal but detectable effect for the ones who left school with no qualifications at all.

As a symbol, it's a weird and unfriendly repudiation of the Statue of Liberty in its own right, but was that “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore" stuff ever all that true? Whichever of those two objects you like, I guess you are going to find the other one offensive if you think too hard about it. But there's nothing new about that poem on the Statue of Liberty being an overstatement. Back in the day when the immigrants were mostly Jewish, Italian and Irish, all those groups were despised, and then quotas were applied, and then Jews fleeing Nazi Germany got sent back, which wasn't considered cool after the fact.

Quite a lot of what is wrong with Mexico comes from their unfortunate geographical situation between Columbia and the world's most voracious cocaine market. Being next door to the world's biggest source of partially regulated firearms doesn't help all that much either.

FlashDangerpants
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by FlashDangerpants » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:37 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:12 pm
Then I assume you wouldn't object if someone said they just don't like Chinese people. Or white people. Or black people. You can't stop people from having an opinion on other humans any more than you can stop someone from liking a song. By the way, that song of yours still follows the basic rules of classical music theory and chord pregression.
I would object. But I can't claim that the reason why they are wrong is validated by a big universe if the universe doesn't care either way.

If somebody says the Chinese are terrible people because of something, then that because statement is up for debate, if it rests on questionable facts, those are open to objective test. If the reason given is unjustifiable then a reasonable default point of view I think is that people are pretty much all the same, everyone wants a warm place to shit right?

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Lacewing
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:55 pm

Nick_A to Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:15 am
Christianity is something different. It offers the means with the help of the spirit for the inner reconciliation of the human struggle between our higher and lower natures into a higher quality of being.
Such concepts are NOT hard to understand. But to claim that they are only associated with Christianity is a form of righteous masturbation. Christianity (like any intoxicated practice) can cloud and distort awareness to such a degree as to leave Christians very delusional indeed. Being Christian means NOTHING. You are not somehow aware of greater truths -- rather, you are compromised by your obsession. Being aware of spirit and one's higher and lower natures is not a big mystery. People can be aware of it (or ignore it) via many paths/perspectives.
Nick_A to Greta wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:15 am
What is it about the secular mind which enables it to so easily justify physical killing by abortion and spirit killing through attitudes by people for some reason called educators? No self questioning?
C'mon Nick... why don't you ask what it is about the Christian mind that enables it to so easily justify all of the physical and spiritual killing that it has propagated throughout history (and still does)???? No self questioning?

Your skewed view is so manipulative...and ignorant, as you IGNORE SUCH A GREAT DEAL. And your glorified PREJUDICE is so hateful.
Yet you think it's all rational and appropriate because of the way you inaccurately categorize it and lie about other views that you do not understand. How can you be so oblivious of these vast discrepancies and judgments you continually proclaim as truth? Spirit is surely IMMENSE and unrestricted -- rather than being limited/defined by such small-minded, categorized toxicity.

So what do you get out of categorizing and restricting it as you do?

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:15 pm

FlashDangerpants wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:20 pm
Consider art. Is this piece of music which almost everyone thinks brilliant: Beethoven's 9th Ode to Joy
Objectively better than my favourite song today: Skinny Puppy, Harsh Stone White
Any reasonable man would note that billions of people find the first very pleasing and artistically fulfilling.
Few really appreciate the excellence of the other one, it is tonally horrific and almost impossible to enjoy.
But it is my favourite song and there's no way to establish that it shouldn't be, it doesn't even make sense to suppose that I could be in error here.
It's quite original and atmospheric but provided no visceral appeal to me at all.

Some time ago I made music that was at times even edgier than the Skinny Puppy track but with the passing of years my tastes have become much more mellow - especially loving Pat Metheny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDI2p9VOKks, Jean Luc Ponty, Gil Scott-Heron, Focus, Gong etc. Beautiful for the ears but with plenty of subtle (and unsubtle at times) intensity, passion, originality and intelligence.

Yes, as you say, that doesn't make the music better (or worse), despite majority opinions, even expert ones. It's simply music with certain attributes that will appeal to people with certain attributes, and a fair bit of it depends on one's age and health.

The pop monoculture that the industry rationalised the "product" down to is extremely narrow and many young people too find it shallow and unsatisfying, lacking in sincerity and care. In nature, as in culture, homogeneity equals stagnation. New genes are helpful, and the more variant they are, the greater the benefit in creating new humans with well rounded immune systems and personal attributes.

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