DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

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Frank N Stein
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:44 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:22 am
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:03 am
Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:29 am

I am surprised. I didn't think you would be so bad as to condone the beating of a wife is a husband "has to". Plus expectations that wives be their husband's underlings and sex slaves.

Your attitudes are retrograde, misogynist and deeply immoral and unfair.

Why should a superior mind be compelled to obey an inferior mind just because the latter is attached to meat n' veg? That's primitive.

US women take note - the Republicans and evangelical Christians will reduce you to being men's chattel.
You forget that while you are only concerned with secular relationships I am referring to the ideal of traditional marriage and its goal of receiving from above in order to give to below through the blend of its quality of male and female energies. You don't understand it which is also unfortunately the norm of today.
However, you hide your fear and hatred of women behind a desire to them women and deny them any kind of rights or independent value in life based on a spurious ideology entirely lacking any kind of actually basis beyond "the Bible said so" (never mind the ambiguities).

We know the ancients' idea of male and female energies - the male completely and utterly dominates and controls the female in every aspect of life aside from a tiny sliver of independence in doing what you would call "women's work" - cleaning toilets, servicing men like prostitutes and char-ladies 24/7 on demand, cleaning up garbage and excrement left by men, preparing food and cleaning up after mens' eating, making simple handicrafts and looking after babies.

Meanwhile, men - even the very stupid ones - may do all of the thinking, philosophising, learning that women must not be permitted, unless traitors to their gender. Nick's men make all decisions in all areas with zero input from women who, to you, are like children who should be seen and not heard.

Basically yours is it's a dream of empowerment to make up for a sense of impotence and weakness due to regular rejection by women. So you find an ancient ideology that fits with your fear and hatred of women to use as justification, to fight back and punish them by always advocating against any rights for them.
Women are really to blame, for wanting to breed with larger males with an abundance of testosterone. If they had chosen weenie males with squeaky voices and paltry testosterone then there wouldn't be a problem (and we would probable be extinct).
You do women a grave disservice by the way. Is the Bayeux tapestry 'simple handicraft'?

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:02 am

Ah, but Frank, the men of antiquity did not pursue Amazonian powerhouses or geniuses either. Rather, they seemed to prefer their women small, docile and easily controlled like their other pets and chattel.

That total domination has always been the Abrahamic ideal, with ancient customs today posited by misogynists to be an unchanging universal law, which as we both know is self serving bollocks.

Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about extreme racism rather than extreme sexism? Is this the hidden agenda of US Trumpian racists, for a full coup to reduce women's status as well as keepin' them brownies and blackies at bay?

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:09 am

As for being "obsessed with rights", I am sure that if a law was passed forbidding Christian worship then Nick would have a great deal to say about rights to worship.

I think the more important subject to discuss here is why governments are still wasting untold millions of taxpayers' money on tax breaks for religions? There is no reason why they should be allowed this parasitic relationship with society. If they want funding for charity they can compete for the charity dollar like any other NGO instead of having their political wings funded.

Let's see how ideologies play out on a level playing field.

Frank N Stein
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:29 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:02 am
Ah, but Frank, the men of antiquity did not pursue Amazonian powerhouses or geniuses either. Rather, they seemed to prefer their women small, docile and easily controlled like their other pets and chattel.

That total domination has always been the Abrahamic ideal, with ancient customs today posited by misogynists to be an unchanging universal law, which as we both know is self serving bollocks.

Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about extreme racism rather than extreme sexism? Is this the hidden agenda of US Trumpian racists, for a full coup to reduce women's status as well as keepin' them brownies and blackies at bay?
Do you have any evidence for any of this?

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:27 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:29 am
Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:02 am
Ah, but Frank, the men of antiquity did not pursue Amazonian powerhouses or geniuses either. Rather, they seemed to prefer their women small, docile and easily controlled like their other pets and chattel.

That total domination has always been the Abrahamic ideal, with ancient customs today posited by misogynists to be an unchanging universal law, which as we both know is self serving bollocks.

Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about extreme racism rather than extreme sexism? Is this the hidden agenda of US Trumpian racists, for a full coup to reduce women's status as well as keepin' them brownies and blackies at bay?
Do you have any evidence for any of this?
What kind of evidence would you find acceptable? Which claims bother you? Will you be prepared to put in a few hours' research if I ask you for evidence for various claims you have made here without backup?

Too often I have been pushed to work for hours to provide evidence for those who provide none themselves, so I want to make sure this is a true quid pro quo situation before going to the trouble of finding references and quotes. I have multiple challenges to your statements if you want to keep pushing for evidence which you are yet to provide for anything you say. To address properly I estimate you will need to do about 12 hours' of research, if you are willing ...

Seriously, if this was the kind of disciplined thread where people provided formal evidence, then I'd provide it. In truth, this thread is just an opinion chamber and you are taking the piss and being treated accordingly.

Frank N Stein
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:44 pm

Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:27 pm
Frank N Stein wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:29 am
Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:02 am
Ah, but Frank, the men of antiquity did not pursue Amazonian powerhouses or geniuses either. Rather, they seemed to prefer their women small, docile and easily controlled like their other pets and chattel.

That total domination has always been the Abrahamic ideal, with ancient customs today posited by misogynists to be an unchanging universal law, which as we both know is self serving bollocks.

Besides, I thought this thread was supposed to be about extreme racism rather than extreme sexism? Is this the hidden agenda of US Trumpian racists, for a full coup to reduce women's status as well as keepin' them brownies and blackies at bay?
Do you have any evidence for any of this?
What kind of evidence would you find acceptable? Which claims bother you? Will you be prepared to put in a few hours' research if I ask you for evidence for various claims you have made here without backup?

Too often I have been pushed to work for hours to provide evidence for those who provide none themselves, so I want to make sure this is a true quid pro quo situation before going to the trouble of finding references and quotes. I have multiple challenges to your statements if you want to keep pushing for evidence which you are yet to provide for anything you say. To address properly I estimate you will need to do about 12 hours' of research, if you are willing ...

Seriously, if this was the kind of disciplined thread where people provided formal evidence, then I'd provide it. In truth, this thread is just an opinion chamber and you are taking the piss and being treated accordingly.
In that case you are talking balderdash then.

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:02 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:44 pm
In that case you are talking balderdash then.
And that differs to you and others here ... how?

Nick_A
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:37 am

Lacewing wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:29 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:17 pm
That is why Christianity is meaningless for the secularist.
Christianity is meaningless for anyone who recognizes the thousands of reasons that it's absurd.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:03 am
I am referring to the ideal of traditional marriage
Of all the "traditional marriage" throughout history, why do you think your contrived version is the ultimate representation?
If you don't know the purposes of Christianity, how can you be expected to know and appreciate the purpose of the traditional Christian marriage as an ideal? It must appear meaningless.


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Lacewing
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:47 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:37 am
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:29 am
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:17 pm
That is why Christianity is meaningless for the secularist.
Christianity is meaningless for anyone who recognizes the thousands of reasons that it's absurd.
Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:03 am
I am referring to the ideal of traditional marriage
Of all the "traditional marriage" throughout history, why do you think your contrived version is the ultimate representation?
If you don't know the purposes of Christianity, how can you be expected to know and appreciate the purpose of the traditional Christian marriage as an ideal? It must appear meaningless.
No...just not essential. It may be meaningful and essential to some, but that does not make their perspectives of meaning override all other perspectives. Meaning can be seen in everything... or one can see that there is no meaning in anything, other than what we make up as we go. Does it matter if it doesn't matter? :)

Nick_A
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 am

Greta wrote

Too often I have been pushed to work for hours to provide evidence for those who provide none themselves, so I want to make sure this is a true quid pro quo situation before going to the trouble of finding references and quotes. I have multiple challenges to your statements if you want to keep pushing for evidence which you are yet to provide for anything you say. To address properly I estimate you will need to do about 12 hours' of research, if you are willing ...

Greta wrote
However, you hide your fear and hatred of women behind a desire to them women and deny them any kind of rights or independent value in life based on a spurious ideology entirely lacking any kind of actually basis beyond "the Bible said so" (never mind the ambiguities).
How many hours did you put in to compile the evidence necessary to come up with that silliness?
We know the ancients' idea of male and female energies - the male completely and utterly dominates and controls the female in every aspect of life aside from a tiny sliver of independence in doing what you would call "women's work" - cleaning toilets, servicing men like prostitutes and char-ladies 24/7 on demand, cleaning up garbage and excrement left by men, preparing food and cleaning up after mens' eating, making simple handicrafts and looking after babies.

Meanwhile, men - even the very stupid ones - may do all of the thinking, philosophising, learning that women must not be permitted, unless traitors to their gender. Nick's men make all decisions in all areas with zero input from women who, to you, are like children who should be seen and not heard.

Basically yours is it's a dream of empowerment to make up for a sense of impotence and weakness due to regular rejection by women. So you find an ancient ideology that fits with your fear and hatred of women to use as justification, to fight back and punish them by always advocating against any rights for them.
This is a classic example of a meaningless ad hom attack. The traditional Christian marriage is a blend of classic male and female energies to become united in the being quest to evolve closer to our source. You cannot understand this ideal. What in the following invites any form of abuse? You may not understand it but why associate it with anything negative? It is just your way and the only path open to such negativity is to attack Trump. A curious characteristic of the closed secular mind is to protect itself through imagined self justifying negative expression.

Ephesians 5:25-33 New International Version (NIV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Nick_A
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:23 am

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:47 am
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:37 am
Lacewing wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:29 am

Christianity is meaningless for anyone who recognizes the thousands of reasons that it's absurd.


Of all the "traditional marriage" throughout history, why do you think your contrived version is the ultimate representation?
If you don't know the purposes of Christianity, how can you be expected to know and appreciate the purpose of the traditional Christian marriage as an ideal? It must appear meaningless.
No...just not essential. It may be meaningful and essential to some, but that does not make their perspectives of meaning override all other perspectives. Meaning can be seen in everything... or one can see that there is no meaning in anything, other than what we make up as we go. Does it matter if it doesn't matter? :)
That is our essential difference. I believe in an objective meaning and purpose for human being and you believe we have no objective meaning and purpose so create our own. There is no way your belief can support diversity as an asset. Diversity creates opposing subjective meanings and finally indulge together in the ritual of mutual self destruction to determine superiority. If that's the modern way of subjectivity, it just seems senseless to me.

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Greta
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Greta » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:46 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 am
(ad hominems removed)
Ephesians 5:25-33 New International Version (NIV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Now the reality:
According to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, "Men who abuse often use Ephesians 5:22, taken out of context, to justify their behavior, but the passage (v. 21-33) refers to the mutual submission of husband and wife out of love for Christ. Husbands should love their wives as they love their own body, as Christ loves the Church."

Some Christian theologians, such as the Rev. Marie Fortune and Mary Pellauer, have raised the question of a close connection between patriarchal Christianity and domestic violence and abuse. Steven Tracy, author of "Patriarchy and Domestic Violence" writes: "While patriarchy may not be the overarching cause of all abuse, it is an enormously significant factor, because in traditional patriarchy males have a disproportionate share of power... So while patriarchy is not the sole explanation for violence against women, we would expect that male headship would be distorted by insecure, unhealthy men to justify their domination and abuse of women."

... Bible verses are often used to justify domestic abuse, such as those that refer to male superiority and female submission. Others counter that the use of violence is a misinterpreted view of the male role. For instance, Eve (Genesis 2-3), is seen by some Christians[who?] to be disobedient to patriarchal God and man, and to many a generalized symbol of womanhood that must be submissive and subject to discipline, while others[who?] disagree with this interpretation.
Or how about this? 'Submit to your husbands': Women told to endure domestic violence in the name of God https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-18/ ... ds/8652028
Research shows that the men most likely to abuse their wives are evangelical Christians who attend church sporadically*. Church leaders in Australia say they abhor abuse of any kind. But advocates say the church is not just failing to sufficiently address domestic violence, it is both enabling and concealing it. [sounds familiar???]

Who else could be blamed, Peter screamed at his wife in nightly tirades, for her alleged insubordination, for her stupidity, her lack of sexual pliability, her refusal to join him on the 'Tornado' ride at a Queensland waterpark, her annoying friendship with a woman he called "Ratface"? For her sheer, complete failure as a woman?

The abuse went on, day and night, as Sally bore a child, worked morning shifts at the local hospital and stayed up late pumping breast milk for her baby. She was deeply exhausted, depleted and worn.

The night before Sally finally left her husband and the townhouse they lived in on Sydney's northern beaches he told her she was also failing her spiritual duties.

"Your problem is you won't obey me. The Bible says you must obey me and you refuse," he yelled. "You are a failure as a wife, as a Christian, as a mother. You are an insubordinate piece of s**t."

Sally, an executive assistant who had just turned 44, stared at him, worrying about whether her neighbours — or her sleeping daughter — could hear his roars through the thin walls.

She knew what had "flicked his switch": the simple act of coming down to say goodnight, which he interpreted as a lack of willingness to have sex.

Peter then opened his Bible and read out some verses:

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour."
Ephesians 5: 22-23

Next was:

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man; rather, she is to remain silent."
1 Timothy 2: 11-12

For years, Sally had believed that God wanted her to submit to her husband, and she did her best, bending to his will and working to pay the bills, despite the pain she was in. But on this night, she was done. The next morning, she packed up her bags, grabbed some clothes for her daughter and left, taking the little girl with her.

She left everything else behind.

Nick_A
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:15 am

Greta, all you've done is post descriptions of expressions of Christendom. Christianity is something different. It offers the means with the help of the spirit for the inner reconciliation of the human struggle between our higher and lower natures into a higher quality of being. You have no idea what this means just as you will not understand what Kierkegaard and Simone Weil are referring to.
The greatest enemy of Christianity, Soren Kierkegaard argued, was "Christendom"—the cultured and respectable Christianity of his day. The tragedy of easy Christianity is that existence has ceased to be an adventure and a constant risk in the presence of God but has become a form of morality and a doctrinal system. Its purpose is to simplify the matter of becoming a Christian. This is just paganism, "cheap" Christianity, with neither cost nor pain, Kierkegaard argued. It is like war games, in which armies move and there is a great deal of noise, but there is no real risk or pain—and no real victory. Kierkegaard believed the church of his day was merely "playing at Christianity."
“The supernatural greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.” ~ Simone Weil
Christianity isn't cheap nor is it about wife beating. All these accusations are just secular interpretations normal for secular intolerance. Unfortunately secular intolerance is common in schools often resulting in spirit killing.

What is it about the secular mind which enables it to so easily justify physical killing by abortion and spirit killing through attitudes by people for some reason called educators? No self questioning? And yet people somehow believe something good can come from diversity which can only intensify the harmful effects of collective ignorance

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Lacewing
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:59 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:23 am
There is no way your belief can support diversity as an asset.
And yet it DOES. So there must be something wrong with your calculations. Hmm... imagine that. What you say doesn't exist for me, DOES. I can see all kinds of things... so could it be that I'm just not ruled or uniquely convinced by things as you might be? Diversity is the expression of all that can be, and as I've said many times, I think that's magnificent. You are the one who seems to discredit and squash diversity, yes?

Frank N Stein
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Re: DIVERSITY IS AMERICA'S GREATEST STRENGTH

Post by Frank N Stein » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:42 am

Indeed. There's nothing like having triads, South African racists, Somalian gangs, Colombian drug cartels, radical muslims, and Russian mafia etc. etc. added to the mix for a bit of 'diversity'. We can just group hug them and they will become good citizens.

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