Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

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-1-
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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by -1- » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:57 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:25 pm
And now they lose their homes again. And take pay cuts.
Yes, middle class is disappearing, worker class is becoming poorer.

Elasticity of price over supply/demand. Too many workers, not enough work.

And Americans on top of this make it into a moral issue. "Only those who work, shall eat."

The resistence by the public against an economy-sustaining move of general income for everyone, may be the one thing that will destroy America's World Supremacy, by destroying its economy, and its industry, which are co-dependent on each other.

Other capitalist countries are not averse to introduce general basic income, but they are just watching each other, who'll jump in first, and more importantly, what will happen to that which takes the plunge. It's a waiting game, and the example of the first country will be a flagship decision point for all other leading industrial countries. Except maybe for the US of A, which is richly steeped in traditional values and faiths.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 am

-1- wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:57 pm
Dalek Prime wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:25 pm
And now they lose their homes again. And take pay cuts.
Yes, middle class is disappearing, worker class is becoming poorer.

Elasticity of price over supply/demand. Too many workers, not enough work.

And Americans on top of this make it into a moral issue. "Only those who work, shall eat."

The resistence by the public against an economy-sustaining move of general income for everyone, may be the one thing that will destroy America's World Supremacy, by destroying its economy, and its industry, which are co-dependent on each other.

Other capitalist countries are not averse to introduce general basic income, but they are just watching each other, who'll jump in first, and more importantly, what will happen to that which takes the plunge. It's a waiting game, and the example of the first country will be a flagship decision point for all other leading industrial countries. Except maybe for the US of A, which is richly steeped in traditional values and faiths.
Doesn't Denmark have basic income? I know they have free post-secondary.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by -1- » Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:52 am

Dalek Prime wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 am

Doesn't Denmark have basic income? I know they have free post-secondary.
I don't know if Denmark has basic guaranteed income.

I also don't know that they have a free toothbrush-exchange policy in pharmacies, and free sexual services provided by visiting nurses. All-gender services are in the 2020 health and welfare budget, to kick in on July 1, 2021. There is also voluntary euthanasia for one's elderly parents, when they get to be too burdensome, and there is also free medicare.

In jails they provide soap and water to the inmates, along with food and a daily dose of fresh air, and intimate inmates can mate in tin minis. These are called Timmy's Wriggly Jammie Filthy Pig Shits, by some of the inmates. (Roughly translated from Danish.)

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by Belinda » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:36 pm

-1- seeks to perpetuate a lie and I object, for the safety of this discussion group . -1- wrote:
There is also voluntary euthanasia for one's elderly parents, when they get to be too burdensome,
is a lie and -1- ought not to tell this lie.

Medically-assisted dying is the correct term . Burdensome individuals are protected by stringent laws .

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by FlashDangerpants » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:40 pm

philosopher wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:28 pm
But the few politicians who speak their cause all want to abolish the current workfare or even welfare benefits, and replace it with some sort of Basic Income, levelled according to income in a way that still gives incentive to work.

This would cut adminstrative costs of welfare benefits with all its fit-for-work tests etc. and more importantly:

It will create TRUE liberty. Not wage slavery. But true liberty. You actually have a CHOICE to: Work more or less or stop working. If you work more, you get more money, obviously. If you choose to work less, thats fine, but you won't get as much money. The same applies for not working at all.

But, and here's the crucial part:

Those working class labourers doing the tedious, boring and physically damaging work and whom envy those getting welfare benefits, OPPOSE the Basic Income-idea. For no apparant reason.

I don't get it?
Maybe they have had cueless Utopian ideas sold at them before. They might not want to have a system that is too wonderful to be true foisted on them, only to find out it wasn't as true as you hoped, and doesn't work. It would be bad for them if this comes to light AFTER they have traded away all their pension rights for it. So it seems they have more to lose than you, and understand economics better than you do, being apparently poorer than you, and therefore having to pay attention to it.

It's also possible that they have an understanding you do not, of how unlikely their jobs actually are to be automated away by robots any time soon, and so they understand that the necessay precondition for UBI (a massive increase in productivity brought about by huge levels of automation) is much more distant than you are wishing it to be.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by philosopher » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:02 pm

-1- wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:52 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 am

Doesn't Denmark have basic income? I know they have free post-secondary.
I don't know if Denmark has basic guaranteed income.

I also don't know that they have a free toothbrush-exchange policy in pharmacies, and free sexual services provided by visiting nurses. All-gender services are in the 2020 health and welfare budget, to kick in on July 1, 2021. There is also voluntary euthanasia for one's elderly parents, when they get to be too burdensome, and there is also free medicare.

In jails they provide soap and water to the inmates, along with food and a daily dose of fresh air, and intimate inmates can mate in tin minis. These are called Timmy's Wriggly Jammie Filthy Pig Shits, by some of the inmates. (Roughly translated from Danish.)
This is all wrong.

We have no basic income. The entire idea is opposed widely in Denmark, as we have abolished the Welfare State and replaced it with the british Workfare State - where labor is a duty - almost like conscription, only that the differences is that conscription is military and imposed on healthy individuals, labor duty is imposed on even the most disabled and very ill patients.

The reason I'm saying this is a british model, is because of the ATOS death toll in UK in recent years, where people died because of fit-for-work assessments. The samme happens in Denmark, and has happened since the reforms started in 2012-13. The Danish government - conservative or social-democratic - don't care at all if disabled people die because of the harsh fit-for-work assessments. They HATE disabled people. That's why they oppose the Basic Income idea.

The only ones supporting the idea are the far left parties like the Red-Green Alliance. It's a sad but true reality of this country with our shitty politicians. My fellow countrymen don't give shit either for the welfare of the weakest. They all make disability a shameful thing, saying disabled and ill people who claim they cannot work, are all fraudsters, lazy bastards - some even call them rats and blood-suckers/leeches - its all legal statements in Denmark, as the many laws made to protect against verbal discrimination don't apply to disability - only race and religion.

I'll have to be honest with you guys, the reason I'm discussing pro-basic income globally/internationally is to make this idea so popular, that somewhere some country will adopt basic income and abolish all sorts of labor duty (including conscription) and provide a role model for other countries - like Denmark.

As for the rest of the bullshit in your comment, we don't have "toothbrush exchange" or any of the other stuff you mention.

I don't know much about jails, but from what I've read in the news, various reports etc. it is customary to isolate prisoners (solitary confinement) for minor offences - for a month at a time. With no regards whatsoever of their mental or physical condition.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:00 am

Belinda wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:36 pm
-1- seeks to perpetuate a lie and I object, for the safety of this discussion group . -1- wrote:
There is also voluntary euthanasia for one's elderly parents, when they get to be too burdensome,
is a lie and -1- ought not to tell this lie.

Medically-assisted dying is the correct term . Burdensome individuals are protected by stringent laws .
Belinda, and others, please read carefully and don't work to destroy my reputation with drummed-up reasons.

I introduced the paragraph thus:

"I also don't know that they have a free toothbrush-exchange policy in pharmacies, and free" etc. etc.

Please note that I said "I also don't know". How can a statement be a lie and a perpetuation of it, if it outright denies knowledge?

I am sorry, but a whole bunch of us out there on this forum just don't see any humour in my jokes. This is unfortunate, but also unavoidable. I need to learn better how to live among humourless individuals.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by commonsense » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:53 pm

-1- wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:00 am
I am sorry, but a whole bunch of us out there on this forum just don't see any humour in my jokes. This is unfortunate, but also unavoidable. I need to learn better how to live among humourless individuals.
May I suggest that you try using the Wisconsin punctuating phrase, “Ha!”, to follow subtle or misunderstood humor, as in the following example:

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. Ha!

Even those who don’t think it’s funny may recognize that you’re making a joke.

BTW, the Wisconsin “Ha!” can also be used after any sentence that you fear may raise ire.

When used orally, “Ha!” may resemble the sound of “Heh!”.

Otherwise, you might try using an emoji. :lol:

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:13 pm

Commonsense, that's very good advice. When I think about it, it's common sense to make it known that I'm making a joke. Some people make the fact a joke is cracked by making it funny; poor sapless haps like me, I have to resort to props and a laugh-track.

Whatever it takes. Ha! :wink:

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by -1- » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:16 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:53 pm

May I suggest that you try using the Wisconsin punctuating phrase, “Ha!”,...
Yes, or else, in the complete absence of any laughter, I'll use the Jacksonville, Kentucky punctuating phrase, which is a black eye.

Jacksonville is Muhammad Ali's native hometown.

Ha! 8)

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by Belinda » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:33 am

-1- I am quite sorry I did not understand your joke, except that painful and undignified dying is not a joking matter.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:39 am

I'm not necessarily against the idea of a UBI, I just don't understand why people always jump the gun that the government is the only entity capable of supplying such a thing. I find this especially counter-intuitive, where it's being proposed in a hypothetical situation of a mass work scarcity created through something like a takeover by automation - because in that situation, a lot of things will already be free (or dirt cheap)

But you seem to have a different line of reasoning for why we need a UBI. And I think you have philosophy a lot of people don't actually agree with.
philosopher wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:28 pm
In the early through mid-20th century, lower class people blamed the rich for their financial problems:

Not paying enough taxes according to their enormous wealth.
I think this is a bit of 'progressive' projection, here; The lot of the lower class has never blamed the rich for their problems, they just see them as having a solution to their problems.
But nowadays the poor working class seems to blame those receiving unemployment benefits/sick or disability relief benefits etc. claiming that they are all cheaters who just don't want to work, while the working people have to do all the dirty work.
Well people don't like being forced into a responsibility they aren't responsible for; It's not the fault of taxpayers that those receiving welfare benefits are in their situation. That's definitely part of it, but I think it's also that no one seems to be giving their fears a voice, at least in terms of a solution on this. There are definitely politicians in my country who look to cut the costs of our welfare system, but very few who are looking ahead to the future in order to prevent further welfare dependency.

The main reason why illegal immigration in america is such a hot-button issue right now is not because of some fear that they're taking our jobs - although that's admittedly part of it, and not one I find entirely justifiable - no, it's because they're unnecessarily increasing our country's welfare dependency. Now, most people are wrong about how they're doing this, because it's not like they're applying for social security or some shit - it's actually because of all the children they're having.
But the few politicians who speak their cause all want to abolish the current workfare or even welfare benefits, and replace it with some sort of Basic Income, levelled according to income in a way that still gives incentive to work.

This would cut adminstrative costs of welfare benefits with all its fit-for-work tests etc. and more importantly:

It will create TRUE liberty. Not wage slavery. But true liberty. You actually have a CHOICE to: Work more or less or stop working. If you work more, you get more money, obviously. If you choose to work less, thats fine, but you won't get as much money. The same applies for not working at all.
A UBI system that you expect to replace our current welfare system, is going to be far more expensive than our current welfare system. The full damage extends beyond that, because you do effectively reduce the incentive for people to work, even if not entirely. And of course this is going to have other consequences like raising the cost of goods to the point that it essentially cancels out whatever he government is giving you. I think you need to elaborate a bit on your rationale, here.

As for having 'true liberty,' you definitely already have that. It's just a matter of whether you think the consequences are worth it. They're not even 'consequences,' really, it's just that you know what you can have with a job is so much better.
Well, then is also those in government, as they run out of options to control the people through work, incentives, taxes etc.
In this pipedream of yours, how does this prevent them from controlling you through taxes? They are going to be substantially higher with a system that covers substantially more, while incentivising less.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by bahman » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:23 pm

philosopher wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:02 pm
-1- wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:52 am
Dalek Prime wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:47 am

Doesn't Denmark have basic income? I know they have free post-secondary.
I don't know if Denmark has basic guaranteed income.

I also don't know that they have a free toothbrush-exchange policy in pharmacies, and free sexual services provided by visiting nurses. All-gender services are in the 2020 health and welfare budget, to kick in on July 1, 2021. There is also voluntary euthanasia for one's elderly parents, when they get to be too burdensome, and there is also free medicare.

In jails they provide soap and water to the inmates, along with food and a daily dose of fresh air, and intimate inmates can mate in tin minis. These are called Timmy's Wriggly Jammie Filthy Pig Shits, by some of the inmates. (Roughly translated from Danish.)
This is all wrong.

We have no basic income. The entire idea is opposed widely in Denmark, as we have abolished the Welfare State and replaced it with the british Workfare State - where labor is a duty - almost like conscription, only that the differences is that conscription is military and imposed on healthy individuals, labor duty is imposed on even the most disabled and very ill patients.

The reason I'm saying this is a british model, is because of the ATOS death toll in UK in recent years, where people died because of fit-for-work assessments. The samme happens in Denmark, and has happened since the reforms started in 2012-13. The Danish government - conservative or social-democratic - don't care at all if disabled people die because of the harsh fit-for-work assessments. They HATE disabled people. That's why they oppose the Basic Income idea.

The only ones supporting the idea are the far left parties like the Red-Green Alliance. It's a sad but true reality of this country with our shitty politicians. My fellow countrymen don't give shit either for the welfare of the weakest. They all make disability a shameful thing, saying disabled and ill people who claim they cannot work, are all fraudsters, lazy bastards - some even call them rats and blood-suckers/leeches - its all legal statements in Denmark, as the many laws made to protect against verbal discrimination don't apply to disability - only race and religion.

I'll have to be honest with you guys, the reason I'm discussing pro-basic income globally/internationally is to make this idea so popular, that somewhere some country will adopt basic income and abolish all sorts of labor duty (including conscription) and provide a role model for other countries - like Denmark.

As for the rest of the bullshit in your comment, we don't have "toothbrush exchange" or any of the other stuff you mention.

I don't know much about jails, but from what I've read in the news, various reports etc. it is customary to isolate prisoners (solitary confinement) for minor offences - for a month at a time. With no regards whatsoever of their mental or physical condition.
Very sad to read that.

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Re: Why do lower class people oppose Basic Income?

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:16 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:13 am
Impenitent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:50 am
you can't have something for nothing

"The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money" - Thatcher

-Imp
Quoting the thatcher neo-liberal kunt. Now that says it all.

There might come a day when no one has to do any work at all. Then who would 'neo-liberal' fascist kunts like you have to look down on?
What is 'work' anyway? Buying and selling foreign currency i.e.'work' that creates nothing and ends up bankrupting countries? Is that 'work'? It might make one individual psychopathic shit-head rich, but is it really 'work'? Most people go off each morning, do nothing productive all day, then go home. Is that work? They say the more elaborate the job title, the more meaningless the job.
I agree with Veggie. The rich people earn gazillions of £s and $s which is theft by another name. Theft that poor people do is by contrast small small. But the poor person's crimes are easier to see and understand and are not mysterious especially when the right wing press works them up.

There's your answer, Philosopher.

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henry quirk
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"the right wing press works them up"

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:33 am

It's just 'the press'. It has no wings.

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