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How should society be organised, if at all?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:04 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
And repeat : what is understanding ?
Understanding is the application of logic to hypothetical or real world problems
This is arrived at through knowledge acquired through deduction or observation

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:01 am
A gap in knowledge is merely academic so not really dangerous but a problem can have actual consequences
My definition of a "problem" is the is-ought gap itself ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem )

People are dying. They ought not to.

What's the problem? HOW do we build the bridge over the gap? We cure malaria.

I am hungry. I ought not to be hungry. How do I build the bridge? I eat food.
I think this pattern is universal.
Last edited by TimeSeeker on Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:07 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:04 am
Understanding is the application of logic to hypothetical or real world problems
This is arrived at through knowledge acquired through deduction or observation
This is circular. You are defining understanding and knowledge in terms of each other.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3137
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Understanding is the application of logic to hypothetical or real world problems
This is arrived at through knowledge acquired through deduction or observation
You are defining understanding and knowledge in terms of each other
They are not mutually incompatible terms because knowledge by definition must be understood
To understand something is to know what it means so they are defined in relation to each other

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:13 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 am
They are not mutually incompatible terms because knowledge by definition must be understood
To understand something is to know what it means so they are defined in relation to each other
Then it's equivocation. So you haven't defined neither knowledge nor understanding ;)

surreptitious57
Posts: 3137
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:17 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Understanding is the application of logic to hypothetical or real world problems
This is arrived at through knowledge acquired through deduction or observation
This is circular
Circular reasoning is only invalid where the premise and conclusion are false
Where they are true though it is perfectly sound as with the above example

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:30 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:17 am
Circular reasoning is only invalid where the premise and conclusion are false
Where they are true though it is perfectly sound as with the above example
Uh. No :) Circular reasoning is never "valid" - it's a tautology. Recursive reasoning is valid - it is computation.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3137
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:25 am

TimeSeeker wrote:
Circular reasoning is never valid its a tautology
Just because circular reasoning is a tautology does not mean that it is invalid
Tautologies are trivially true but anything that is true is both valid and sound

The statement I am an unmarried bachelor is circular reasoning and a tautology and trivially and objectively true
Can you give me an example of circular reasoning with true premises and conclusion that is not objectively true ?

No you cannot because true premises and conclusion by definition have to be objectively true as well
[ I obviously only mean premises and conclusion that are true both within and without the argument ]

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:17 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:25 am
Can you give me an example of circular reasoning with true premises and conclusion that is not objectively true ?
I can do one better. Can you give me a tautology where you know the premises are true? Oops! ;)

Now you've pre-supposed knowledge. Or truth.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3137
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:44 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Can you give me a tautology where you know the premises are true
Black swans are not white [ too easy ask me a hard question instead ]

TimeSeeker
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:44 pm
Black swans are not white [ too easy ask me a hard question instead ]
If that were true it would be trivial. But it doesn't matter because it's false.

This black swan is white on its wings.
blackswan.JPG
blackswan.JPG (48.5 KiB) Viewed 436 times
This black swan is white on its beak.
Black_swan_jan09.jpg
Black_swan_jan09.jpg (40.16 KiB) Viewed 432 times

surreptitious57
Posts: 3137
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Re:

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:27 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Can you give me a tautology where you know the premises are true
I am married to my wife [ no more otherwise this just will get silly ]

TimeSeeker
Posts: 2866
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:42 am

Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:28 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:27 pm
I am married to my wife [ no more otherwise this just will get silly ]
Who else would you be married to? Your dog? Or perhaps you are hinting that you aren't polygamous?

The point in both cases: you have conveyed no new information to me.

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