Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Belinda
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Re:

Post by Belinda » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:13 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:58 pm
I don 't think I'm bein' cynical. Just statin' a fact. Man generally is a tribal creature.

As for man's survival: I'm very optimistic, IF we get up and out. if we allow ourselves to remain dirtside, well, then I'm not so optimistic.
It's defeatist to presume that tribalism will win out over universalism. Universalism is not easy especially when one feels strong attachment to some tribe or other.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:34 pm

"It's defeatist to presume that tribalism will win out over universalism."

Did I say tribalism wins out? Nope. I just made an observation about 'today'.

But, for the sake of argument: let's say tribalism wins out over 'universalism'.

So what?

We seem to have gotten pretty far along with tribalism: mebbe if it ain't broke we shouldn't try to fix it.

Belinda
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Re:

Post by Belinda » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:34 pm
"It's defeatist to presume that tribalism will win out over universalism."

Did I say tribalism wins out? Nope. I just made an observation about 'today'.

But, for the sake of argument: let's say tribalism wins out over 'universalism'.

So what?

We seem to have gotten pretty far along with tribalism: mebbe if it ain't broke we shouldn't try to fix it.
Tribalism is failing now that each country depends upon each other country. Nature knows no national boundaries and climate change affects everybody all over the world.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:43 pm

Belinda wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm
Tribalism is failing now that each country depends upon each other country. Nature knows no national boundaries and climate change affects everybody all over the world.
The down side is that for every powerful institution that we have created to benefit is in the short term, it always comes to bite us in the ass in the long term. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that... It attracts precisely the kind of people who shouldn't be in power.

So we ought to abolish such institutions once they achieve their mandate. And yet - we don't.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:11 pm

"Tribalism is failing now that each country depends upon each other country."

Nah, the natural bent towards tribes keeps us from dissolving borders: a good thing, in my book.

#

"climate change affects everybody all over the world."

Sure, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Re:

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:00 am

Belinda wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm
henry quirk wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:34 pm
"It's defeatist to presume that tribalism will win out over universalism."

Did I say tribalism wins out? Nope. I just made an observation about 'today'.

But, for the sake of argument: let's say tribalism wins out over 'universalism'.

So what?

We seem to have gotten pretty far along with tribalism: mebbe if it ain't broke we shouldn't try to fix it.
Tribalism is failing now that each country depends upon each other country. Nature knows no national boundaries and climate change affects everybody all over the world.
1. Tribalism as a critical necessary human instinct emerged out of Nature.
2. It is also Nature that creates invisible boundaries.
3. Thus it is nature [1 & 2] that creates national boundaries out of tribalism.

Tribalism is inherent and embedded within the DNA/RNA of all humans and to an extent still have limited use thus it difficult to get rid of it except to modulate it.

Tribalism [instinct] as with anger [emotion] should be dealt with as suggested by Aristotle,
  • Anybody can become tribalistic [angry] - that is easy, but to be tribalistic
    with the right person and
    to the right degree and
    at the right time and
    for the right purpose, and
    in the right way -
    that is not within everybody's power and is not easy.
I believe the tribalistic impulse within should be suppressed and fully modulated in the future, but at present some degree of National tribalism is still essential until the majoirty of humans has the competency for universal co-operation.

TimeSeeker
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Re: Re:

Post by TimeSeeker » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:35 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:00 am
I believe the tribalistic impulse within should be suppressed and fully modulated in the future, but at present some degree of National tribalism is still essential until the majoirty of humans has the competency for universal co-operation.
Your hypothesis ignores two key factors.

1. Violence is the ultimate authority from which all other authority is derived. So who holds the monopoly on violence in your society?
2. Co-operation requires a common goal. What do you propose as our goal?

How do you ever seeing you and I co-operating on ANYTHING? I've seen how you think - I have no time for working with fools who don't understand risk management and only think short-term/small-scale. The only common goal I could share with you is if you were to make me tea.

Belinda
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Re: Why Liberals are better people than Conservatives

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Henry Quirk wrote, quoting me:
"climate change affects everybody all over the world."

Sure, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
Even if you knew that, which you don't, that's not sufficient reason to do nothing.

Belinda
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Re: Re:

Post by Belinda » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:57 pm

TimeSeeker wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:43 pm
Belinda wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 pm
Tribalism is failing now that each country depends upon each other country. Nature knows no national boundaries and climate change affects everybody all over the world.
The down side is that for every powerful institution that we have created to benefit is in the short term, it always comes to bite us in the ass in the long term. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that... It attracts precisely the kind of people who shouldn't be in power.

So we ought to abolish such institutions once they achieve their mandate. And yet - we don't.
That's a sweeping claim. I think of several institutions that fit your description and there are different remedies.So I don't really know what you mean.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Even if you knew that, which you don't...

Go here...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/

...and read. Not just one or two pieces. Read till your eyes bleed.

...that's not sufficient reason to do nothing.

If I'm right and climate change is not being driven by human industry (but is, in fact, natural and normal), then what the hell are we supposed to do, Belinda?

In other words: if it ain't broke, how are we supposed to fix it?

commonsense
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Re:

Post by commonsense » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:13 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm

If I'm right and climate change is not being driven by human industry (but is, in fact, natural and normal), then what the hell are we supposed to do, Belinda?

In other words: if it ain't broke, how are we supposed to fix it?
Maybe global warming is, in fact, not driven by human industry. Maybe it’s natural and normal for the biosphere to eventually boil all life forms off the planet.

Thus the real question is: if it ain’t been broken by us, how are we supposed to fix it?

We can think globally and act locally: recycle, reuse, reduce.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:21 pm

"Maybe it’s natural and normal for the biosphere to eventually boil all life forms off the planet."

Hyperbole...c'mon, Common, you're better than that.

#

"Thus the real question is: if it ain’t been broken by us, how are we supposed to fix it?"

You can't fix what ain't broke. And fiddlin' with it is just gonna get it broke.

No, adapt as you can (and get up and out): that's your answer.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re:

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:36 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm
Even if you knew that, which you don't...

Go here...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/

...and read. Not just one or two pieces. Read till your eyes bleed.

...that's not sufficient reason to do nothing.

If I'm right and climate change is not being driven by human industry (but is, in fact, natural and normal), then what the hell are we supposed to do, Belinda?

In other words: if it ain't broke, how are we supposed to fix it?
Do you have any evidence to back that assertion up? I mean, it wouldn't be based on self-serving politics or anything would it?
Gee, I wonder why Americans are the most hated people on the planet. It's a complete mystery.

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henry quirk
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check out the link, veg...'nuff said

Post by henry quirk » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:09 pm

.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: check out the link, veg...'nuff said

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:38 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:09 pm
.
Well, there is rather more at stake if one side is wrong, than the other. If you 'deniers-of-the-bleeding-obvious' get your way and are wrong, then we are all dead. If the 'acceptors-of-the-bleeding-obvious' get their own way and turn out to be wrong (they haven't and they won't) then at least we would have begun to show a bit more respect for the only home we have, and learnt to have a bit of foresight and consideration for future generations.

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