Overpopulation & the elderly

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Skip
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Re:

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:39 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:54 pm

Whatever dignity your death has, is preserved in a minarchy, cuz it's 'your' death. In the here and now, assisted suicide, legalized (never decrmininalized) simply puts you in a queue, waitin' on forms to be signed, for approval from a bureaucrat.

I don't how much clearer I can be.
Stripped of the 'dignity' and 'approval' and 'mandate' folderol, that makes sense.
But filling out forms and standing in line for a few weeks still beats 30 years of agony. And since there won't be an instant switch to minarchy in the foreseeable future, a step-wise approach to sanity still beats absolute rejection of sanity.

I mean the attitude "I don't care how many thousands of people suffer how much or how long, just so there's no new regulation" is not acceptable to me.

Belinda
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Belinda » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:47 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
have 'Euthanasia R Us' on the corner.
Doctor assisted dying should be available whenever it's needed.There is much need for doctor assisted dying. There are no arguments of substance against it.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:54 pm

"But filling out forms and standing in line for a few weeks still beats 30 years of agony."

Okay, what I'm gettin' here is: 'If I don't have a doc to assist me, then I can't suicide and must endure years of torture'.

Is this an accurate interpretation?

#

"Stripped of the 'dignity' and 'approval' and 'mandate' folderol, that makes sense."

It's nuthin' I haven't said before in this thread. If you or anyone cared to actually read what I wrote and keep it in context, you'd know that.

#

"I mean the attitude "I don't care how many thousands of people suffer how much or how long, just so there's no new regulation" is not acceptable to me."

That isn't what I said, isn't what I hinted at.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:08 pm

Belinda,

You pulled a piece of snark and presented it as though it somehow sums up my position in this thread.

It doesn't, so why did you do that?

Did you read my posts, or just pick one at random?

-----

That's sumthin' I'm havin' difficulty with: some of thngs bein' attributed me, in this thread (various attitudes or viewpoints), are not anything I've actually said or suggested. Seems to me: if a body reads the thread, my meaning is clear.

I know I can be a hard pill, and I know my writing can be idiosnycratic, but I'm plain-spoken.

Just not gettin' how anyone is misinterpretin' my posts in this thread so severely.

Skip
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Re:

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:16 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:54 pm

Okay, what I'm gettin' here is: 'If I don't have a doc to assist me, then I can't suicide and must endure years of torture'.

Is this an accurate interpretation?
It is, if you are physically incapable of, or restrained from, killing yourself, and you won't ask a friend or relative for help, because they will then face prosecution.
"Stripped of the 'dignity' and 'approval' and 'mandate' folderol, that makes sense."

It's nuthin' I haven't said before in this thread. If you or anyone cared to actually read what I wrote and keep it in context, you'd know that.
I read it, and you kept mixing in the folderol.
"I don't care how many thousands of people suffer how much or how long, just so there's no new regulation"

That isn't what I said, isn't what I hinted at.
Really?
Such an irrevocable thing shouidn't be easy, or sanctioned.

There's not a jot of dignity in dyin', Greta, and we shouldn't pretend there is,

Enlist a loved one if you must, but don't ask strangers to 'help' (through action or acceptance).
don't make it my business by legalizing it or makin' it 'nice' (a prelude to mandatory culling).
Now: let's say we 'legalize' assisted suicide...how long long before it get folded in with other 'entitlements'? How long before it becomes 'approved'? How long before it becomes an 'attractive option'? How long before it becomes 'mandatory"?
(through action or acceptance)
I'm reading: If you can't do it yourself, it should be illegal to get professional help.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:36 pm

"It is"

Well, at least my comprehension isn't shot.

#

"I'm reading: If you can't do it yourself, it should be illegal to get professional help"

If that's what you and others come away with from the totality of my posts in this thread, then I've communicated poorly.

I've de-railed the thread when I thought I was expressing a coherent view.

My apologies.

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Lacewing
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Lacewing » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:39 pm

Excessive government regulation is the world we live in and it is our challenge to evolve and find balance. Taking up an extreme position in complete opposition doesn't demonstrate any realistic thoughtfulness.

Dying OR living in agony is not anything that anyone should have to endure. There should be a peaceful, non-traumatic, and non-violent way to EXIT when anyone is certain that's what they want to do. And they should be able to accomplish that also to protect their loved-ones from being emotionally and financially destroyed from the long-term care and effects of someone who has no significant quality or interest in being here.

Riddled with cancer and waiting to die, my mom mostly slept for three years in a round-the-clock care facility, costing the state a fortune, and waking up just often enough to be tormented by her confusion and emptiness, which tortured me as well. (I thought it might kill me before it killed her.) She had a non-resuscitation plan in place, but it didn't address her situation. I would never want any of my friends or family to go through such a thing on my behalf. I fantasized that if I were in such a situation, I would do everything I could to escape the facility and run out into traffic to get hit by a truck. But that's if I had enough mind left to do so -- and look at all the trauma that would create for others.

It's cruel and wasteful to keep people alive when it's not what they want. It would be most sane to make it easy/painless for them to GO. Maybe such an option would change a lot of attitudes about life -- because when one doesn't have to be here, they may be less inclined to habitually grumble and whine, or talk about going home to meet their God -- and more inclined to create and explore the potential of being here. What might this world look like if inhabited only by people who want to be here right now as it is?

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

"Taking up an extreme position in complete opposition doesn't demonstrate any realistic thoughtfulness."

As I say...

If that's what you and others come away with from the totality of my posts in this thread, then I've communicated poorly.

I've de-railed the thread when I thought I was expressing a coherent view.

My apologies.

Skip
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Re:

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:37 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:04 pm

If that's what you and others come away with from the totality of my posts in this thread, then I've communicated poorly.
I don't doubt that your convictions are clear in your own head, but perhaps you have not previously consolidated them in communicable form.
For clarification, I divided my own thinking into the following questions:
How do I feel about life and death - my own, my loved-ones', strangers'?
What do I think on the subject? (Thought and feeling are not necessarily the same, and in some cases, are in conflict. That conflict needs to be resolved before we can take a stand on any issue.)
What is the legal position - historically and currently? What's right/wrong with that in my view? Why?
What is the popular inclination? Do I agree with the majority? On what principle? Is there a significant minority that I sympathize with?
What is the government's position? What is their rationale? Does it need to be changed? How?
What changes are currently feasible? What will those changes entail? How will they be implemented?
And only when all that's lined up clear and definite, only then:
What are the long term implications - best case, worst case, probable outcome, pitfalls, problems, opposition/backlash, future adjustments - ?

I don't start with what can go wrong - because anything can. That's no reason to just accept what already is wrong.
I start with what do I want? and try to plot a course from here to there.

Skip
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:43 pm

Lacewing -- What might this world look like if inhabited only by people who want to be here ^ right now as it is?
That's the best thing I've read all day. Add:
and only those who are wanted were brought into the world

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:36 pm

“Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you.”
''“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,”
--Sadist Mother Teresa.

If christians weren't such lying filth we would have had legal euthanasia decades ago (and probably hundreds of years ago when you think about how christian superstition has held back scientific advances).
The real reason christians are anti-choice has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life' and everything to do with sadism and 'sanctity of suffering'.
Imagine all those lost 'kisses from Jesus'. Islam has nothing on catholicism in terms of weirdness and salacious sexual sadism.

Dubious
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Dubious » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:55 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:43 pm
Lacewing -- What might this world look like if inhabited only by people who want to be here ^ right now as it is?
That's the best thing I've read all day. Add:
and only those who are wanted were brought into the world
Very likely we would not have the population problem, the global pollution problem or the climate change problem we're faced with now, etc; at least not to the extent in which they currently exist. All of these spawn multiple dilemmas of their own furthering its impact into major geopolitical consequences. These can be even more dangerous in the short term than the fallout caused by the slower degradation of nature though, given time, its consequences can be more deadly as they become irreversible.

Not least, there wouldn't be the epidemic suffering of so many children who didn't ask to be born. It goes without saying that life invokes suffering therefore one of its chief functions should be to limit that suffering whether in the newly born or those who wait to die.

A counter question would be what the world would look like if there were an extermination of a few billion scumbags whether high or low whose existence only serves to make the world miserable. Drug cartels would be a good beginning! No lawyers only firing squads.

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Greta
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Greta » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:47 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:36 pm
“Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you.”
''“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,”
--Sadist Mother Teresa.

If christians weren't such lying filth we would have had legal euthanasia decades ago (and probably hundreds of years ago when you think about how christian superstition has held back scientific advances).
The real reason christians are anti-choice has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life' and everything to do with sadism and 'sanctity of suffering'.
Imagine all those lost 'kisses from Jesus'. Islam has nothing on catholicism in terms of weirdness and salacious sexual sadism.
Treat them mean, keep them keen.

Suffer the little children ... "Come little Alex and meet nice Father Ted who is going to give you the kisses of Jesus ..."

Some of the clergy and church administrators really would have rationalised that the abuse happening under their watch (or bed covers) was providing the kind of suffering that advanced a soul.

Skip
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Skip » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:58 am

Well, they had to make suicide a mortal sin, because they were promising the serfs a beautiful afterlife, but had no intention of making this life less miserable. The believing poor would have rushed off to the good place in droves, long before the elite squoze the last erg of menial labour out of them.
Couldn't have that!
Couldn't have them demanding less misery, either, so it was necessary to make suffering into a beatitude.
And it was necessary to forbid birth control, or they'd have run out of Christian Soldiers before Suleiman ran out out of Muslim ones.
Couldn't have that - even now.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:33 am

Greta wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:47 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:36 pm
“Pain and suffering have come into your life, but remember pain, sorrow, suffering are but the kiss of Jesus - a sign that you have come so close to Him that He can kiss you.”
''“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion. The world gains much from their suffering,”
--Sadist Mother Teresa.

If christians weren't such lying filth we would have had legal euthanasia decades ago (and probably hundreds of years ago when you think about how christian superstition has held back scientific advances).
The real reason christians are anti-choice has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life' and everything to do with sadism and 'sanctity of suffering'.
Imagine all those lost 'kisses from Jesus'. Islam has nothing on catholicism in terms of weirdness and salacious sexual sadism.
Treat them mean, keep them keen.

Suffer the little children ... "Come little Alex and meet nice Father Ted who is going to give you the kisses of Jesus ..."

Some of the clergy and church administrators really would have rationalised that the abuse happening under their watch (or bed covers) was providing the kind of suffering that advanced a soul.
Not Father Ted!!

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