Overpopulation & the elderly

How should society be organised, if at all?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Skip
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re:

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:26 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:03 pm
"...that imposes your values/illusions on everybody."

My notion of a minarchy? Absolutely there is an imposition of *value. You're gonna have that no matter who is 'in charge', no matter what ideology is in place.
Of course I know this. We've had the christian notion of the sanctity of human life (no matter how degraded, downtrodden, miserable or disgusting, only Gawd has a right to end it) imposed on us for the last 1800 years. If less government doesn't change that, what's the point?
*in a minarchy the only real value is 'mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself', so you could have assisted suicide, but you could never have gov-sanctioned, -financed, or -mandated assisted suicide.
So what? You wouldn't have government-run health insurance anyway, so what does "sanctioned" mean in this context? Whatever a doctor and patient agree to would simply be a transaction like any other legal transaction.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:34 pm

"so what does "sanctioned" mean in this context?"

In the context of the here and now, sanctioned means gov-approved, gov-licensed, gov-funded, and (evetually) gov-mandated.

#

"Whatever a doctor and patient agree to would simply be a transaction like any other legal transaction."

A private transaction is always acceptable, preferable.

We're not that far apart, Skip.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8043
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re:

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:41 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:41 pm
"Is money really your only benchmark?"

As a benchmark, money doesn't even figure into ths for me.

It's all about how the convention of assisted suicide would degrade of human life further.

Ending your life is an intensly private event, and -- rightfully -- the idea should disturb folks.

Assisted suicide (the making it conventional and commonplace) dulls sensibilities, reduces the individual to 'meat' to be disposed of.

No, Greta was the hypin' the millions of dollars to be saved if assisted suicide were employed in a large way.

Take your complaints about money grubbin' to her.

#

"The ridiculous thing is that if you got what you crave (no taxes, no Govt.)"

I wish you could keep up. Yes, I'm a natural anarchist, but I advocate for minarchy (very lean, very minimal, governance).
Ummm, you are the one who mentions your taxes and 'stolen money' in practically every comment. So you don't mind taxes as long as they are only spent on things that you approve of. I think that would make you a totalitarian dictator, not an anarchist :lol:

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:47 pm

"So you don't mind taxes as long as they are only spent on things that you approve of. I think that would make you a totalitarian dictator, not an anarchist.

It makes me American.

Pretty much anyone who pays taxes here grouses about waste, poor spending, etc.

As a natural anarchist, I despise taxation. As an advocate of minarchy, I propose seasonal lotteries to pay for the minimal, narrow, courts, police, and millitary.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:48 pm

As for this...

Ummm, you are the one who mentions your taxes and 'stolen money' in practically every comment

...prove it.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8043
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re:

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:00 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:47 pm
"So you don't mind taxes as long as they are only spent on things that you approve of. I think that would make you a totalitarian dictator, not an anarchist.

It makes me American.

Pretty much anyone who pays taxes here grouses about waste, poor spending, etc.

As a natural anarchist, I despise taxation. As an advocate of minarchy, I propose seasonal lotteries to pay for the minimal, narrow, courts, police, and millitary.
What a surprise that you include police and the military--both of which reduce your 'freedom' :lol:

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:52 pm

"What a surprise that you include police and the military--both of which reduce your 'freedom'

Just opposite, they ensure it.

Keep in mind: I'm talkin' about law enforcement and military service in the context of a minarchy, not the here and now.

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Greta » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:01 am

The anarchist who insists that dying people be completely controlled rather than have their individual wishes respected. Riiight.

Nope, you look like just another conservative closet theocrat in libertarian underwear.

And, Henry, don't start with the "mebbe they can do themselves" circular reasoning that was demolished by a few of us earlier in the thread.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

go read the goddamned thread again, you fuckin' crone

Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:09 am

'nuff said

User avatar
Greta
Posts: 4397
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:10 am

Henry: Conservative closet theocrat in libertarian underwear

Post by Greta » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:21 am

"Fucking crone" is a tad pejorative but, sure, I'm a bitch. I'd actually rather not be but I am, and for now I am okay with that. It's a dirty job but diversity means that someone's got to do it.

The good thing about being a fucking crone is that I can tell clowns like you that you are hypocritical with all the capacity for self-reflection of a toadstool.

Allowing people to die with dignity would go a long way to helping problems associated with the OP. The dying don't need closet theists like you promoting interference as preferable to freedom when it comes to religious sacred cow issues.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

you didn't read the thread, or, you read the thread and don't understand, or, you read the thread and choose to lie

Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:31 am

So: I'm done with you.

Leave me be.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8043
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:58 am

Greta wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:01 am
The anarchist who insists that dying people be completely controlled rather than have their individual wishes respected. Riiight.

Nope, you look like just another conservative closet theocrat in libertarian underwear.

And, Henry, don't start with the "mebbe they can do themselves" circular reasoning that was demolished by a few of us earlier in the thread.
You really hit the nail on the head there Greta. I would go further and say 'libertarian' in eugenicist's underwear. That's the underlying philosophy of these so-called 'freedom-lovers'. Apparently Henry doesn't want anyone to have the 'freedom to choose'. Painless death is a human discovery and as such must be accessible to ALL humans. No one has a right to withold it.

Dubious
Posts: 2192
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: you didn't read the thread, or, you read the thread and don't understand, or, you read the thread and choose to lie

Post by Dubious » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:21 am

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:31 am
So: I'm done with you.

Leave me be.
What's the matter henry? Did you forget to "grid your loins" today or were they beaten so bad they turned to egg-white?

Skip
Posts: 2551
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re:

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:11 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:34 pm
[S - "so what does "sanctioned" mean in this context?" - that is, in the context of no government funded health care or insurance]

In the context of the here and now, sanctioned means gov-approved, gov-licensed, gov-funded, and (evetually) gov-mandated.
[
Approved - who cares? what for ? If it's none of anyone's business or government's business, why would it require their special approval?
Licensed - I thought health-care professionals were licensed as competent to provide specific services. A doctor doesn't need a whole separate license to prescribe morphine; a nurse doesn't need a special license to administer an injection.
Funded has been off the table since your minimal government stopped collecting contributions for public health insurance.
Mandated? Why? How would a minimal government bring about such a mandate, why would it want to, and how would it be enforced?
If all government does is keep its nose out of people's private lives, none of those three issues even arise.
[S - "Whatever a doctor and patient agree to would simply be a transaction like any other legal transaction."]
A private transaction is always acceptable, preferable.
All we've ever demanded was not to be criminalized or prevented from carrying out a rational decision to end unendurable lives.
All we've ever demanded is the same consideration that terminally ill or injured dogs routinely get.
We're not that far apart, Skip.
So what was all that clap-trap about the dignity of human life and the necessary indignity of death and sanctions and mandates...?
All we've ever demanded was for government to keep out of people's most intimate functions: sex, conception, birth, marriage and death.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4755
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:54 pm

"If all government does is keep its nose out of people's private lives, none of those three issues even arise."

I agree. That's been my (apparently poorly communucated) point

In the here and now, however, the American gov is up everyone's keister, regulatin'.

If assisted suicide is made legal, acceptable, absolutely it will, as an industry, be regulated. Legislation will be passed settin' standards, licensing will be required, and when folks are prosecuted, it won't be for the assisting in a suicide, but for assisting without a license, or for assisting in sumthin' other than an approved facility, or...

In the minarchy I'd like to see (but never will) you could off yourself as you like, with the assistance of anyone who agreed to such a thing. What you wouldn't have is a gov that corrals you into the 'approved' method'.

Whatever dignity your death has, is preserved in a minarchy, cuz it's 'your' death. In the here and now, assisted suicide, legalized (never decrmininalized) simply puts you in a queue, waitin' on forms to be signed, for approval from a bureaucrat.

I don't how much clearer I can be.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests