Overpopulation & the elderly

How should society be organised, if at all?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: "voluntary euthanasia"

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:29 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:47 am
Nope, no way.

You want out, do the deed yourself, by whatever means you can cobble together.

Such an irrevocable thing shouidn't be easy, or sanctioned.

There's not a jot of dignity in dyin', Greta, and we shouldn't pretend there is, or turn suicide into a trip to the pharmacy or have 'Euthanasia R Us' on the corner.

You just gotta die? Then gird them loins and get to it. Enlist a loved one if you must, but don't ask strangers to 'help' (through action or acceptance).
Hmm. I would love to be a fly on the wall when your diabetic rotten leg is being sawn off by your wife, with no anaesthetic.

Skip
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Re: "voluntary euthanasia"

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:43 am

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:47 am
Nope, no way.
Nobody asked you for permission, or your blessing.
You want out, do the deed yourself, by whatever means you can cobble together.
Some people do. this means they have to go a lot sooner than they would like to, because they must act before they lose the capability.
Such an irrevocable thing shouidn't be easy, or sanctioned.
It is when you're bombing cities full of civilians, or taking people's land away so they starve, or diverting their river or poisoning their fields. Killing is easy, and sanctioned. Why should death by choice be made artificially hard for a few by the same governments that make dying against one's will so very easy for so many?
There's not a jot of dignity in dyin',
Why should there not be?
You just gotta die? Then gird them loins and get to it. Enlist a loved one if you must, but don't ask strangers to 'help'
Not asking anyone who isn't willing to help.
As for acceptance, why should it be required of anyone?
What makes my death your business?

This kind of hypocrisy that keeps coming around:
There's too many of you; you're too expensive. Why don't you die already? Oh, no you don't!
The same kind of hypocrisy surrounds overpopulation:
Look at all those women having babies they can't afford! Why can't they just keep their legs together? Say No to me, will you, bitch?! Don't you dare kill that innocent little baby! Why should i support your bastard brats?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:47 am

Old people are annoying and appalling drivers. Just euthanaise them.

Dubious
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Re: Overpopulation & the elderly

Post by Dubious » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:24 am

philosopher wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:58 pm

We should prohibit the poor (and working class too) from making new humans! If they do, their punishment should be forced sterilization!

Only intelligent, wealthy people should be allowed to have children. This will solve overpopulation.
The problem with this idea is that so many of the world's geniuses came from poor working-class populations. It's not so unusual that the physical chemistry between apparent mediocrities results in something ground-breaking. Nature seem extremely democratic in that respect.

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henry quirk
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"What makes my death (suicide) your business?"

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:44 pm

It's not, so don't make it my business by legalizing it or makin' it 'nice' (a prelude to mandatory culling).

If you wanna off yourself: off yourself.

Not my business or concern (till you demand public approval or sanction).

Skip
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Re: "What makes my death (suicide) your business?"

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:30 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:44 pm


If you wanna off yourself: off yourself.

Not my business or concern (till you demand public approval or sanction).
You don't see that as contradictory. If it's none of your business, it doesn't require your approval or sanction.
Nobody is demanding public approval -
- only the absence of legal obstruction and reprisal -
- for which the victims are forced to pay along with the bullies who think everybody's private life is theirs to command.

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henry quirk
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"only the absence of legal obstruction and reprisal"

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:42 pm

Which you have now.

You eat a bullet in the comfort of your easy chair, in your home: where's the obstruction, the reprisal?

Now: let's say we 'legalize' assisted suicide...how long long before it get folded in with other 'entitlements'? How long before it becomes 'approved'? How long before it becomes an 'attractive option'? How long before it becomes 'mandatory"?

The slippery slope.

Again: you wanna die?

Then die.

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Re: "only the absence of legal obstruction and reprisal"

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:23 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:42 pm
Which you have now.

You eat a bullet in the comfort of your easy chair, in your home: where's the obstruction, the reprisal?

Now: let's say we 'legalize' assisted suicide...how long long before it get folded in with other 'entitlements'? How long before it becomes 'approved'? How long before it becomes an 'attractive option'? How long before it becomes 'mandatory"?

The slippery slope.

Again: you wanna die?

Then die.
So if you have a loved one screaming in agony then I assume you would be quite happy to shoot them in the head.

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henry quirk
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drano

Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:25 pm

why don't you try it?

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Re: drano

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:36 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:25 pm
why don't you try it?
I'm not the one who's writing idiotic anti-euthanasia comments.
Is money really your only benchmark?
The ridiculous thing is that if you got what you crave (no taxes, no Govt.) you would almost certainly be far worse off financially (no worker protection). Even as a self-employed person, much of your income directly or indirectly comes from ordinary people who aren't particularly well off (no man is an island). So getting your eugenicist's wet dream of a society would mean effectively destroying your own income base. You are so brain-washed with some vague fairytale notion of 'freedom' that you would rather cut off your own nose and ears than admit that you've been duped.

Skip
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Re: "only the absence of legal obstruction and reprisal"

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:37 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:42 pm
Which you have now.

You eat a bullet in the comfort of your easy chair, in your home: where's the obstruction, the reprisal?
As I said, I would have to do that sooner than necessary, because by the time it's necessary, I won't be able to. If I'm in a hopeless vegetative state, costing my family everything they own, and keeping a dozen poor patients from treatment that would make them better, I can't do anything about it. If I'm totally paralyzed, imprisoned in an inert body, I would want someone to help me out. If I'm strapped to a hospital bed with dripping tubes and breathing apparatus and needles and bags, unable to scream with pain, I would beg somebody to end the torture, but won't be able to. And if a spouse or child or nurse takes pity on me, you'd throw them in jail.
Now: let's say we 'legalize' assisted suicide...how long long before it get folded in with other 'entitlements'?
It should never have been anything but an inalienable right. What 'other entitlements'? Like freedom of speech, religion and assembly? Yes, I know those rights have been eroded over the past half century, but that doesn't make them less right.
How long before it becomes 'approved'?
It's already approved. The lawmakers are just too chickenshit to acknowledge majority public opinion, because the religious control-freaks carry too much weight.
How long before it becomes an 'attractive option'?
Two weeks. So what?
How long before it becomes 'mandatory"?
Given that the legislators and jurists who have to rule on such decisions are all within hailing distance of old age, probably never.
The slippery slope.
If you leave your house, you might drive a car. If you're out among people, you might get mad at somebody. If you get mad at somebody while driving a car, you might run over them. We'd better not let you leave the house.
Again: you wanna die?

Then die.
Again: It's none of your business when and how I do it, or whether anyone facilitates it.
Last edited by Skip on Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:41 pm

"Is money really your only benchmark?"

As a benchmark, money doesn't even figure into ths for me.

It's all about how the convention of assisted suicide would degrade of human life further.

Ending your life is an intensly private event, and -- rightfully -- the idea should disturb folks.

Assisted suicide (the making it conventional and commonplace) dulls sensibilities, reduces the individual to 'meat' to be disposed of.

No, Greta was the hypin' the millions of dollars to be saved if assisted suicide were employed in a large way.

Take your complaints about money grubbin' to her.

#

"The ridiculous thing is that if you got what you crave (no taxes, no Govt.)"

I wish you could keep up. Yes, I'm a natural anarchist, but I advocate for minarchy (very lean, very minimal, governance).

Skip
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Re:

Post by Skip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:43 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:41 pm

I wish you could keep up. Yes, I'm a natural anarchist, but I advocate for minarchy (very lean, very minimal, governance).
...that imposes your values/illusions on everybody.
It's all about how the convention of assisted suicide would degrade of human life further.
Further than what?
Ashes have a lot more dignity than Alzheimer's patients moaning and twitching and wetting themselves.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:59 pm

"If I'm in a hopeless vegetative state, costing my family everything they own, and keeping a dozen poor patients from treatment that would make them better, I can't do anything about it. If I'm totally paralyzed, imprisoned in an inert body, I would want someone to help me out."

You can instruct, by way of legal document, the hospital withold sustaining treatment. This is not assisted suicide, this is lettin' nature take its course.

#

"If I'm strapped to a hospital bed with dripping tubes and breathing apparatus and needles and bags, unable to scream with pain, I would beg somebody to end the torture, but won't be able to. And if a spouse or child or nurse takes pity on me, you'd throw them in jail."

I never said that, Skip. If you were sufferin', unable to end your life yourself, I would hope someoe would help you finish it. Someone who cares for you, who suffers for you, who knows your wishes and has the strength to see it through. Such a person shouldn't be jailed.

What I don't hope for you is quick and easy access to strangers who are paid to end you. What I don't hope for you is your relegation to 'number' on the day's tally.

But: since the 'majority' is in favor of 'Euthanasia R Us' then they, of course, should have it.

I can only hope it doesn't bite them in keister with unintended consequence.

So: have at it...lobby the powers that be relentlessly...I will not join you on the line.
Last edited by henry quirk on Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by henry quirk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:03 pm

"...that imposes your values/illusions on everybody."

My notion of a minarchy? Absolutely there is an imposition of *value. You're gonna have that no matter who is 'in charge', no matter what ideology is in place.

You know this.









*in a minarchy the only real value is 'mind your own business and keep your hands to yourself', so you could have assisted suicide, but you could never have gov-sanctioned, -financed, or -mandated assisted suicide.

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